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Calvary Chapel Creation Conference to be protested today by Atheist group while Ken Ham, headliner of the CC’s Conference, was accused of “unbiblical, unethical, unlawful behaviour” according to a lawsuit brought by other Christian Creationists

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Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis (right) pictured with the late Chuck Smith.

OC Weekly reports that Atheist groups will converge today to protest Calvary Chapel’s Creation Conference at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa…which, ironically, is located in Santa Ana, not Costa Mesa.

“Orange County’s most famous atheist” Bruce Gleason, according to the report, will lead a group of like-minded pro-Science, anti-6-Day-Creation atheists who will be calling on the public and government to be leery of embracing Ken Ham’s Creationism ideology because they say, “The teachings of creationism harm the U.S. educational system by promoting and teaching anti-science and religious dogma. They consistently try to change laws which will allow them to teach anti-science creationism in public schools.”

The atheists claim that religious dogma and ideology can lead to the dumbing down of students in American schools and point to the United States’ continuing decline in test scores for math and science, compared to other nations.

Creationists say they have the right to religious freedom and free speech and call atheists “intolerant” of their religious views.

Link to OC Weekly article here: http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2014/07/calvary_chapel_creation_conference_protest.php

Headlining the Calvary Chapel Creation Conference is 6 Day Creationist guru Ken Ham.

Ham has come under fire in the past for allegations that he was “unbiblical, unethical” and engaged in “unlawful behaviour” (spelling due to Australian dialect) according to a lawsuit brought against Ham in Australia in 2007. Included in the allegations were claims that Ham was “autocratic” and “authoritarian” in his management style…a charge very similar that has been leveled against many Calvary Chapel pastors and the Moses Model style of pastor-centric, lead pastor has all the power leadership.

Ham’s camp fired back against the plaintiffs, accusing them of “spiritual problems” and “immorality” according to reports by the National Center for Science Education.

The two parties duked it out in court for many years and finally settled their nasty divorce in 2009.

It may have taken God a mere six days to create the earth and the entire Universe….but apparently it took several years, many lawyers and many thousands of dollars of money donated “to Jesus!” to sort out all the money, copyrights, trademarks, assets etc. in the split.

Calvary Chapel Abuse Commentary and Opinion:

I am not a Young Earth Creationist (YEC). There is overwhelming tangible evidence to the contrary…and if “truth” is a Godly virtue…then we must deal with reality and attempt to be as intellectually honest as possible.

I am not an atheist. I have explored the atheist world and continue to read many atheists…but I find their conclusion of “no God” to be equally unconvincing.

The truth appears to be that we have very little understanding of how the Universe and Multi-verse works…and even less understanding of “how” it came to be. Creationists tend to overplay their certainty in their position and are forced into intellectual dishonesty to make the pieces of their Philosophical Puzzle and Conclusion fit together. Likewise, atheists have a tendency to do similar…connecting dots that do not necessarily lead to a certain conclusion of “no God” or “no Creator”.

With regards to the public protests and Creation Conferences and with respect to both Agendas: Both sides have the right to freedom of speech and the right to push their agendas…as long as it is peaceful. Atheists make a valid point, IMO, when they present mountains of evidence that dispute a literal six day creation narrative. Atheists also have the right and probably the responsibility to respond to their conscience and push for pro-Science and pro-Reason…as both of those ideologies tend to reduce archaic religious dogmatism that can lead to abuse, corruption, mistreatment of women, children, etc.  Christians continue to evolve (pardon the double entendre)…and the push-back and criticism from outside groups is healthy. Fellow Christians…we do NOT want to be Islam and the Taliban…and we are not.

Atheists are not the enemies of Jesus…they simply don’t know, don’t understand, don’t see the evidence that the Apostle Thomas was given. I don’t know why God doesn’t provide much tangible evidence today…like walking on water or turning water into wine or allowing Doubting Thomas to get the tangible physical evidence he required to believe…but to fabricate the evidence and engage in intellectual dishonesty only hurts the Christian cause…it doesn’t help.

If Calvary Chapel wants to be like the Calvary Chapel of old that reached out to the outsiders…they should scrap the dishonest 6 Day Creationist stuff and sit down with Atheists as well as dialoging with Christians like a professor Jeff Chalmers and many others who are scientists and Christians who embrace facts and data and truth…and drop the cartoon characters like Ken Ham who seem to make a career out of preying on gullible conservative literalists (theologically speaking).

Personally, I think public education is a government construct and as such, Separation of Church and State is necessary and important. If Islam took over, Christians would be the first in line to shout “Separation of Church and State! No Islam in our schools!” etc.

If you want to ignore mountains of evidence and continue to force yourself to believe a 6 Day Creation fairy-tale, no problem…just do it at church and at a church funded school. If you want to present a 6 Day Creation philosophy/religion/theology…do it in religion classes or philosophy classes…but don’t teach it as science.

I hope the atheists who protest today conduct themselves properly, while exercising their right to free speech….and I hope that our fellow Calvary Chapel Christians conduct themselves properly and I hope they will reconsider embracing and promoting and spending resources on a really bad caricature that gives Christianity a black eye and makes us look intellectually dishonest.

I report the Ken Ham controversy because it demonstrates he is human and not “specially anointed by God!” as some sort of infallible prophet or king or apostle or Jesus. Ham is a man. He’s capable of good and evil, capable of being wrong….like all of us. Don’t be blinded by unhealthy religious worship of men gurus. Examine the facts. Be like the Bereans in everything. View the facts and data we have and compare it to Ham’s version of “the truth!” I have. I changed my opinion about YEC many years ago.

Don’t fear the truth. Don’t fear facts and data contradicting a man-made imposition and interpretation onto ancient text that is very likely to be extremely metaphorical. None are truly bible literalists…or Christians in the U.S. would resemble the Taliban. Don’t fear progressive revelation, don’t fear the Enlightenment, don’t fear the limited facts we can affirm. God is not a book. God is not a verse in the bible. God is not a belief in 6 Day Creation.


RE: Adrian Peterson Child Abuse: Christian parents, don’t beat your kids with rods and sticks in the name of Jesus

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Fellow Christian parents, do not use the Old Testament to justify abusing your children. We are NOT the Taliban or ISIS. Adrian Peterson’s recently exposed Child Abuse demonstrates a huge disconnect in the US and Christian Church at large. “Spare the rod, spoil the child” is not a license to injure and abuse your children. It is evil and wrong. Stop doing it.

Jesus does not want you to beat your kids in his name.

Bob Coy Update: $500,000 per year salary/comp from CCFTL, wife and daughter to California, son to college, Bob Coy “under” Calvary Chapel pastor in Tennessee

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bob coy tiger woods

Bob Coy pictured in a youtube video where he ironically addressed the Tiger Woods’ affair. Sources provide an update on the Coy situation to CCAbuse.

More news out about Bob Coy, the embattled long-time charismatic mega-church pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale.

Coy was forced to resign his position as CCFTL lead pastor after multiple affairs came to light in a very public scandal that garnered international attention earlier this year (a story that first broke on this blog).

Sources confirm that CCFTL is still on the hook for Coy’s massive salary and compensation package that “exceeds” $500,000 per year in total compensation. We will feature a story about the salary/compensation issue soon.

Coy’s wife and daughter have moved to California and his son is away as a college freshman at Liberty University, according to sources. The family is not together, which indicates a separation between Bob and Diane.

According to sources, the Coy’s Florida home is empty and for sale.

Multiple sources inside and outside of Calvary Chapel confirm that Coy completed a rehab program to treat sexual addiction. CalvaryChapelAbuse.com was emailed by several people claiming they saw Bob Coy at a Coy family-owned beach condo as recent as several weeks after the scandal first broke.

Now that Coy has completed his rehab, he is reportedly “under the leadership” of another Calvary Chapel pastor.

“Bob has left for Chattanooga, Tennessee, where he will be living as a part of the Calvary Chapel community there under the leadership of Pastor Frank Ramseur,” said a CCFTL insider in an email to CalvaryChapelAbuse.com.

Back at CCFTL, change is coming slowly, but a change in mindset is underway. There appears to be two distinct Camps…an old guard of Coy loyalists that seem to be comfortable with the status quo of the Moses Model style of Calvary Chapel leadership…and those who have been fighting for more transparency, more accountability and a shared leadership construct that de-emphasizes a mega-church pastor-led dynamic.

“…there is continued concern raised by some about a cover-up, a lack of transparency on the Bob questions, and a lack of change in the Board or Senior Leadership,” said a source. “Steps toward greater integrity and a dismantling of the Moses Model are underway but real change is not strongly apparent.”

CalvaryChapelAbuse.com Commentary and Opinion:

Let’s hope that real changes are underway at CCFTL and let’s hope the Camp at CCFTL that is pushing for more transparency and more accountability wins out. The Bob Coy story can be redemptive if the church and leadership learn some lessons and example a public repentance in how they do things. We wish the best for Coy and his family…and for Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. We’ve all sinned, some of us as bad or worse than Coy. The greater sin in this situation would be for the church to double-down on mistakes from the past and repeat them again in the future. The world is watching…and the goal for CCFTL leadership should be integrity and righteousness and setting a course that honors Jesus…not simply rebuilding a mega-church and trying to find a way to bring a popular pastor back to the pulpit.

Regarding the $500,000 compensation package…that is a very concerning issue…one we’ll explore in depth. The justification for such a large salary is due to the higher salaries and compensation of big-name pastor friends of Coy like Greg Laurie, James MacDonald, Mark Driscoll and others…also very concerning. Since when did the Gospel get so expensive? Since when did “Serving Jesus!” become a career and make people rich? Since when did Calvary Chapel and the evangelical church at large sell its soul to the devil of wealth and self-profit?

What are your thoughts on the Coy situation? We want to hear from you.

Mark Driscoll resigns from Mars Hill: How the Driscoll saga is a good example for Calvary Chapel to consider

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Mark Driscoll, embattled pastor/founder of Mars Hill church...recently resigned for being a jerk.

Mark Driscoll, embattled pastor/founder of Mars Hill church…recently resigned for being a jerk.

Mark Driscoll, the Mars Hill founder and charismatic alpha male mega-pastor, has resigned his position as lead pastor after a very public battle with former assistants, congregants, elders and large online community of critics.

Here is a link to Driscoll’s mea culpa and resignation letter that first appeared in Religion News Service: http://www.religionnews.com/2014/10/15/exclusive-mark-driscolls-resignation-letter-to-mars-hill-church/

A lot of critics have been really hard on Driscoll. Here is a key portion of Driscoll’s public response:

“I readily acknowledge I am an imperfect messenger of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are many things I have confessed and repented of, privately and publicly, as you are well aware. Specifically, I have confessed to past pride, anger and a domineering spirit. As I shared with our church in August, “God has broken me many times in recent years by showing me where I have fallen short, and while my journey, at age 43, is far from over, I believe He has brought me a long way from some days I am not very proud of, and is making me more like Him every day.”

Prior to and during this process there have been no charges of criminal activity, immorality or heresy, any of which could clearly be grounds for disqualification from pastoral ministry.”–Mark Driscoll.

Driscoll and Mars Hill church had come under fire for reports by many former members, elders, employees who alleged he was basically an asshole and shouldn’t be a pastor. Initially Driscoll and Mars Hill took a stonewall approach and tried to deflect the criticism as largely “anonymous” online complainers who were bitter and disgruntled. That public response prompted a Group to name themselves and it seemed to throw gasoline on an already raging fire.

The Group “Dear Pastor Mark & Mars Hill: We Are Not Anonymous” exploded onto Facebook with over 1,200 members…many calling attention to specific allegations of general douchery by Driscoll.

The media has since well-covered the resignation…and many of the Groups that criticized Driscoll have pretty much panned his resignation as insincere and not good enough.

CalvaryChapelAbuse.com Commentary and Opinion:

Critics of Mark Driscoll…what is it exactly that you want from Driscoll and Mars Hill? You want Mars Hill to erect a pyre and burn Driscoll at the stake? You want his body drug through the streets of Seattle? What?

It’s hard to be intellectually honest sometimes because it is always guaranteed to piss someone off.

In this case, the majority of Driscoll’s critics have lost their rational minds.

The man acknowledged specific sins. He resigned. Mars Hill accepted his resignation. I am, frankly, quite shocked by the public apology and the public church discipline…and more shocked that Driscoll fell on his sword and didn’t drag the thing out any further…and over him being a dick no less, not even something as serious as Child Abuse, Sexual Abuse, Adultery, or Financial Misconduct (though we’ll discuss that one in a bit…something might be a bit off there).

Driscoll didn’t molest or beat any kids, he wasn’t boinking his secretary or make-up artist and while he was/is paid a reportedly big salary/compensation package…there are no allegations of financial malfeasance…except one specific concern we’ll discuss shortly.

If it turns out that Driscoll’s “sin” was him being an asshole…then he’s come clean and he’s resigned. Well done Mark Driscoll. If he stops being an asshole, then he should be allowed to pastor again if he wants to do so. Pretty simple. Good example by Mars Hill and Driscoll of actually dealing with sin in a Church Org…something Calvary Chapel doesn’t nearly do.

Here’s the one caveat to my opinion above: There is a question about money that was donated to a particular mission’s fund that allegedly ended up in the Mars Hill general fund for Driscoll to spend. If that is the case…then big trouble in little China…and all bets are off. If it turns out that money was collected under the guise of “this is for overseas missions!” and then it simply went to pay the bills of Driscoll and Mars Hill…well, then, this scandal takes on a whole new light…and Driscoll’s quick resignation may be a smokescreen to take the heat off of folks digging any further into that one.

After analyzing the macro-Mars Hill/Driscoll scandal…that’s the big red flag. If there is anything more serious than Driscoll simply being an asshole…then that’s the issue they (Mars Hill and Driscoll) are afraid of…because that is the issue that, if true, could be illegal and could have much greater implications than a resignation.

Time will tell…but again, if it proves out that Driscoll’s only sin was being a douche…then he’s come clean and he’s resigned…and if he demonstrates repentance by not being a jerk any longer…then he should be restored…in my opinion.

Calvary Chapel could learn a lesson from Mars Hill. CC has seen resignations…but usually at the point of a metaphorical smoking gun to the head of a Bob Coy or an arrest like Dino Cardelli, Chris Olague, Jimmy Kempner, etc. Guys like Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia make Mark Driscoll look like a choir boy…yet Calvary Chapel stonewalls and even defends their embattled pastor and invites him to their annual official Pastors’ Conference.

Ironically, Grenier is accused of something similar to the allegations of Driscoll’s bait-and-switch. A separate Reaching Youth non-profit entity was set up by Grenier and Calvary Chapel.  A prominent area home builder, Andy Mangano, gave a large one million dollar donation to the separate charity…and got a headline in the Fresno Bee for it. According to former staff, board member and bookkeepers of Calvary Chapel…a huge portion of the Reaching Youth monies…estimated to be in the many hundreds of thousands of dollars…ended up in Bob Grenier’s general fund at Calvary Chapel Visalia…where he compensated his household to the tune of over $150,000 per year in salary/perks/benefits. Nice trick. An inside source also alleged that Matt Bixler’s law firm that handled the very precarious transaction was quite nervous about it…which in my opinion is very telling that it stinks to high heaven.

We’ll see what happens with the allegations about Driscoll’s money issue and I’ll change my opinion about his coming clean and resigning if it turns out it was just a strategy to deflect attention from a much more serious issue.

Note to Driscoll and Mars Hill…instead of doing what the bible tells you, maybe you should consider pulling a page from Calvary Chapel’s and Bob Grenier’s book and simply sue everyone in sight to try and shut them up. That seems to be a better worldly strategy to silence critics and protect an abusive pastor. Your bad. Maybe next time.

Calvary Chapel West Grove volunteer church leader, 50, arrested for sex with a 14-year-old girl. Wife notified CC Pastor who contacted police immediately.

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Volunteer leader at Calvary Chapel West Grove arrested for sexually abusing a teen girl...unlike past bad examples within Calvary Chapel...the senior pastor at this CC franchise reported immediately.

Volunteer leader at Calvary Chapel West Grove arrested for sexually abusing a teen girl…unlike past bad examples within Calvary Chapel…the senior pastor at this CC franchise reported immediately.

Vincent Daniel Lavello, a 50-year-old Calvary Chapel West Grove volunteer church leader, was arrested and charged with one felony count of unlawful sexual intercourse with a child at least 10 years younger than the defendant and six felony counts of lewd acts upon a child, according to Orange County District Attorney’s Office.

According to police reports, the victim is a 14-year-old girl.

OC Weekly broke the story here: http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2014/11/vincent_daniel_lavello_calvary_chapel_child_sex.php

According to the OC Weekly report, it was Lavello’s wife who first became aware of the alleged sexual abuses and then she went to the Calvary Chapel West Grove pastor and reported her allegations, including “inappropriate text messages.”

The article states that the Calvary Chapel West Grove pastor immediately contacted the police.

CalvaryChapelAbuse.com contacted lead pastor Brad Young. He confirmed that he did report the matter to authorities right away and did not try to handle it in-house. When asked if his Calvary Chapel franchise had Child Protection Policies in place, his reply was “of course we do” but he was hesitant to discuss the matter further stating he wasn’t excited about another article coming out about this situation.

If you have any information about Vincent Lavello you are asked to contact Garden Grove Police Detective Dave Young at 714.741.5836 or Supervising District Attorney Investigator Kelly Core at 714.347.8794.

CalvaryChapelAbuse.com Commentary and Opinion:

Terrible tragedy, too common among church “leaders” and volunteers…we see this happen far too frequently in Calvary Chapel as well as other Church Organizations like the Roman Catholic Church and even institutions like Penn State University.

The message here is: It’s not a matter of “if” there are criminals and sexual abusers in our midst in the halls of church “leadership”…it is “when” will they offend…and is that church and the rest of the leadership there doing the best they can to protect kids from these predators.

In this case, from initial reports, it looks like Calvary Chapel West Grove and their pastor did what they should…they reported to the police right away. This is in stark contrast to the Elizabeth Ayub statutory rape by then Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pastor John Flores….where leadership there, according to inside sources, first wanted to handle the crime in-house and send the teen girl to the Calvary Chapel castle in Austria and make things go away. This example of immediate reporting is also contrasted by reports from the victims’ family that Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia was made aware that an employ of his was molesting his two step-daughters. According to the victims and family, Grenier told them not to go to police and attempted to handle the matter in-house…which is against the laws of mandatory reporting by clergy. Fortunately, the mother eventually reported to police, the step-father copped to the molestations and the family was able to make eventual amends. The family reports that Calvary Chapel Pastor Grenier essentially kicked them out of church for not submitting to his authority on the matter by going to police.

Good job Calvary Chapel West Grove for immediately reporting the sexual crime. Unfortunately, the mindset in many Calvary Chapels is still to handle things in-house and to not immediately report, which is now a crime due to Mandatory Reporting laws. It is my opinion that Pastors like Grenier and others tried to cover up the scandal because they believe it would affect the reputation of their church and attendance and giving if it was found out that such a crime occurred at the hands of one of their leaders, staff, volunteers or pastors. Could it also be that pastors who don’t report are themselves guilty of abuse? Either way, it is very wrong.

Again, I call on the Calvary Chapel Association, the Body that hands out the official “Affiliation” to Calvary Chapel Pastors to use the name and logo rights owned and controlled by Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and Chuck Smith’s Estate…to implement Mandatory Child Protection Policies as By-Laws in prospective Calvary Chapel franchises/affiliates. Why is this not required? Why does Calvary Chapel continue to leave it to the individual franchise holders to make up their own rules with regards to Child Protection Policies…yet requires the same franchisees to sign off on other rules regarding doctrinal agreement, agreement to follow the rules of the Calvary Chapel Distinctives, etc?

Good examples are out there. Calvary Chapel Boise, for instance, has solid Child Protection Policies in place and maintains and executes a policy of reporting alleged abuses immediately to the authorities. Calvary Chapel Boise also background checks all volunteers, employs, pastors, leaders etc. screening for child abuse, sexual abuse, felonies etc. I have had a lengthy discussion with Pastor Bob Caldwell about what he would do in the case of a report/allegation/accusation of Child Abuse at his Calvary Chapel franchise…he told me he would take the matter seriously and would report immediately to local authorities and not try to handle such a matter in-house…no matter who was accused.

Pastor Young did the right thing by immediately reporting. I understand his hesitance and not wanting to discuss the matter and draw more attention to a bad situation…however, the story needs to be told and lessons need to be learned. This stuff does happen and, unfortunately, other CC Pastors have a history of doing the wrong thing when it does happen. Pastors, like it or not, you are on the front lines of this stuff. Most folks will seek YOU out as their pastor first, instead of the authorities. It is your job to have a plan of how to deal with these matters and to deal with them lawfully and correctly.

May Calvary Chapel find Accountability Jesus in this important area, Organization wide.

Drunk Ex Pastors: Former Calvary Chapel Pastors launch thought-provoking podcast

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Jason Stellman and Christian Kingery...both ex Calvary Chapel Pastors...take some shots...literally and metaphorically...at Religion, Politics and Culture.

Jason Stellman and Christian Kingery…both ex Calvary Chapel Pastors…take some shots…literally and metaphorically…at Religion, Politics and Culture.

Former Calvary Chapel Pastors Jason Stellman and Christian Kingery launched a new podcast aptly titled “Drunk Ex Pastors.”

As the title suggests in a provocatively blunt manner…these guys take some shots and then discuss tame subjects like Religion, Politics, Culture…you know, non-controversial things like that.

While I am politically much more conservative than the pair…I do appreciate their willingness to explore the boundaries in what is a witty, often irreverent yet intelligent manner. I don’t always agree…rarely politically…though I often agree with regards to their more liberal approach to Theology/Religion…but I always laugh and they cause me to think through my particular positions.

The podcast is not for those who are easily offended or stumbled by non-political correctness, so be warned :-)

In the episode linked below, Drunk Ex Pastors discuss…among other things…Calvary Chapel.

Calvary Chapel Visalia mom seeking help with her molesting husband: Pastor Bob Grenier told me “it was wrong to report him to the District Attorney’s office…”

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From Bob Grenier’s “Daily Devotional” today: Proverbs 11:8 “The righteous is delivered from trouble, And it comes to the wicked instead.”

The following is a verbatim direct personal testimony of a long-time Calvary Chapel Visalia mother and volunteer.

She alleges Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia told her not to report Child Molestation to the District Attorney. This was one of many testimonies of Calvary Chapel Visalia church-goers that I presented directly to Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (with Chuck’s attorney Janet Carter and Pastor Dave Rolph and my brother Geoff at the meeting). This was part of an effort to deal with Bob’s abuses and corruption within the church after attempts at the local Calvary Chapel Visalia were shut down by Bob and his Elders and Board.

This testimony is shocking and sobering. I don’t understand why nothing has been done about this and many other things connected to Bob Grenier.

“In 2000 my daughter came forward with her story of years of sexual abuse by my husband.  The shock and sorrow that followed was not out of the ordinary, but the behavior of the Senior pastor of CC Visalia, Bob Grenier, was.  I went to him for help and it was as though I had done something wrong, NOT my husband.  

I was told that the important thing was to keep my marriage in tact, that it was wrong to report him to the District Attorney’s office and I could no longer teach sunday school or keep maintaining the grounds (as we had done for years).  As time went on the pastors made it uncomfortable and virtually impossible for myself and my family to keep attending CC (my son-in-law who kept trying to attend the longest was finally told point blank, not to come back).  We had been very involved, very connected to the church (attending for close to 20 years) even closely connected to Bob’s own family through our children’s friendships; but the change after my going against Bob’s wishes and reporting the child abuse to the authorities was so extreme we felt forced to leave.  

Could Bob’s strong negative reaction to the reporting of child abuse (even though as a pastor he is a mandated reporter) be explained by the sad fact that he also has sinned against his family in the same way and is living in denial??”

Former Calvary Chapel Visalia bookkeeper’s letter to Chuck Smith

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Following is an excerpt of a letter/testimony of a recent bookkeeper of Calvary Chapel Visalia. It was given to me to present to Chuck Smith (then living) in our attempts to deal with the Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia situation inside the Calvary Chapel System.

The letter is also included in the evidence attachments in our defense of Bob Grenier’s lawsuit against me.

I am being sued for defamation and I am innocent. I told the truth as I know it and believe it…truths communicated to me by credible sources who are in a position to know these issues…and corroborated by other credible sources.

“Dear Pastor Chuck Smith:

Before I begin with my testimony regarding what I have personally seen, heard, and experienced in regards to Bob Grenier, I would like to give a little background about my family and myself. In January of 2007, we attended our first mission’s conference at Murrieta Hot Springs since our home church (Calvary Chapel San Luis Obispo) encouraged us to go since we had expressed a desire to serve as missionaries to the country of Ukraine. It was there at the conference that God changed our lives forever. We heard George Markey speak and were eager to learn from him, so we hung on his ever word; knowing that he was the pioneer of sorts to go out to Ukraine with his whole family and leave everything in order to serve the Lord in that country and to see the people there come to know Jesus. He planted the first Calvary Chapel in Ukraine. Upon speaking with George after the conference, he encouraged us to go where the Lord was calling us to go. Soon after, we met Phil Metzger who encouraged us to come for their missions training program in order to prepare for a life as missionaries in Ukraine. The next month, we were able to leave everything that we knew here to attend the 1 to 2 semesters Missions Training Program with the intention upon going to serve in Ukraine as missionaries. God brought our dreams to pass and we served faithfully in Ukraine for almost 3 years. We returned back to stay here in California in March 2010 due to my health problems and also to care for my husband’s aging parents.

I worked for Calvary Chapel Visalia as their bookkeeper from the end of July 2010 until August 2011. Upon my taking this position as bookkeeper, the previous administrator, Kevin Mizner, was well aware (as was Pastor Bob) of my health problems and my need to be evaluated and treated.  During my time there, I was aware that Pastor Bob and Gayle were having problems with all but one of their sons and that accusations had been made against them. At the time, we decided it best that we let them handle what we thought to be their own family issues and would give them the benefit of the doubt that they were indeed telling the truth in regards to what had happened. I had read some of the things that written on the blog and couldn’t believe that my Pastor and his wife would be guilty of such things. We still chose to stand by them and believe them, as we had no reason not to.

During my time as a bookkeeper I had a strong conviction that my job was given to me by the Lord and I took that responsibility very seriously. The Lord’s money is something that should be taken seriously because people give these tithes and are giving them unto the Lord. That being said, I believe God’s money should also be handled correctly and wisely.

There are several things that I found to be an inappropriate/illegal use of funds during my time there. Whether this is right or wrong in the eyes of the law, I never found it appropriate, ethical, or biblically correct for our Pastor to charge every penny of his fuel to the church credit card.  I realize that the church card is under his name personally, but he had made the choice at some point before me to utilize this card strictly for church expenses.  But, there were many times that he would take his youngest son, Robert Jr., to U2 concerts (this is just one example), and their family would take trips together that were not ministry, all of which was paid for on the church credit card. Pastor Bob has always proudly and regularly boasted from the pulpit that he was in debt to no one and was proud that the Lord has allowed him to be debt free. Pastor Bob allowed the church to pay for all of his fuel costs whether they were ministry related or not. He also never once produced a receipt for anything that he ever charged on the card, even though the church’s accountant had told me that they could be audited for not doing so.

I did not appreciate the way he would treat me when he asked me to do certain things that were contrary to normal accounting procedures, as the church’s accountant had instructed me. For instance, he had purchased something on the church card in which he quickly produced a check as reimbursement for the credit card charge. He had then asked that I apply the payment immediately to the church card. When I tried to explain that I could deposit his check, but that the payment for the charge in question should not be paid until the statement appeared, he became very angry with me and would not let me speak as I was trying to explain to him the simple accounting practice of a debit and a credit. He kept shushing me and would not allow me to explain. I tried to tell him that I could deposit his reimbursement into the account that I would expense it from, but he would not let me explain anything. I felt very frustrated and confused when I came in to work the next day and had an email notice from the Visa card telling me that a payment to that account had posted for said amount of his reimbursement check. He had asked DiDi, his daughter–in-law, to pay the credit card for that amount behind my back. At that point, being that it was at the end of my two-week notice, I gave up trying to help and/or explain just how to handle credit card statements and payments.

Also, on a consistent basis, Pastor Bob would charge high dollar charges ($1000.00 or more) to the church card and claim each time that it was a mistake on his or Gayle’s part and the money would be paid back right away. It wasn’t until he and his younger son, Robert Jr., took a personal trip to Italy with the church’s Visa flight miles, that I realized that these charges were probably not an accident at all.  I just didn’t think that was an appropriate way to disperse flight miles, especially when everyone in the office is under the impression that those flight miles were to be used to fund missionary trips.

Another mishandling of money (actually, it is illegal) is that the salary for Susie Dowds is being paid to Susie, with the understanding that the money being paid to her, is to cover the salary for both her and her husband, Greg Dowds.  The reason for this is to prevent his payments for some sort of disability from being cut. I discovered this as I was inputting the church budget into Quick Books because on the budget for Susie’s salary, it includes her husbands name as well. The money that she is paid is extremely disproportionate to the amount of work she does compared to other employees. 

The church has also been committing insurance fraud for quite sometime now in regards to Pastor Bob’s daughter in law being insured, along with his son and grand daughter. Even though DiDi is salaried as the Children’s Director, she is listed in the payroll system as part time.  On average, she works no more than 16 hours a week. And that is on a busy week when there is an event. She receives full benefits working very part time. Also, she took over as the bookkeeper. This is not wise as it leaves the door open for financial mishandling of God’s money. “


File under Irony and Hypocrisy: Calvary Chapel Visalia Bob Grenier’s “devotional” about ruthless and cruel men

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“SHARING GRACE THROUGH SCRIPTURE ABOUT THE GRACIOUS, RUTHLESS, MERCIFUL, AND THE CRUEL”

Proverbs 11:16 “A gracious woman retains honor, But ruthless men retain riches.”

Proverbs 11:17 “The merciful man does good for his own soul, But he who is cruel troubles his own flesh.”

2. Ruthless men retain riches.

Proverbs 11:16 “A gracious woman retains honor, But ruthless men retain riches.”

Moving on now to a certain type of man.
He is called ruthless.
Or violent.
The word comes from a word meaning to dread, fear oppress, break to terrify.
And it came to mean terrible, or terrible one, a strong, mighty terror-striking man.
Unfortunately for the world there are these types of men in it.
These types of men, these violent men get rich.

4. But he who is cruel troubles his own flesh.

Proverbs 11:17 “The merciful man does good for his own soul, But he who is cruel troubles his own flesh.”

On the other hand, we are told about another type of man.
The cruel man.
The word cruel comes from a word meaning fierce. Apparently meaning to act harshly.
This type of man is contrasted with the man who is merciful.
And here is what happens to him.
He will trouble his own flesh.
Or he will destroy himself.
His cruel heart will bring about the destruction of his own flesh.
This could even extend to his wife, and his children, who are his own flesh.
His cruel heart can destroy many.

Some Questions and Applications:

1. We see these two types of people everyday, don’t we?

2. We see gracious or merciful women.

3. We see ruthless or violent men.

4. And we see merciful men, and sad to say cruel men.

5. What’s on the outside comes from what is on the inside.

6. The inner heart determines what the outer life will be like.

7. Isn’t it great to know we know the changer of hearts.

8. He is the one who can give a man or a woman a new heart, a heart like His own.

Link to Pastor Bob’s full devotional here: http://www.calvarychapelvisalia.com/index.php/our-media/daily-devotionals/entry/sharing-grace-through-scripture-about-the-gracious-ruthless-merciful-and-the-cruel

Amen, Bob. Now go look in the mirror and say this whole devotional to yourself and confess and repent and seek to make amends to all those you have been cruel and unmerciful to over your many years as a tyrant, bully and abuser at your Calvary Chapel franchise. He also states that “these types of men, these violent men get rich”…well, Bob has been living high on the Jesus Money for a long time…$750,000 (reportedly) from a separate non-profit called Reaching Youth (that was supposed to help kids) ended up in Bob’s General Fund…and he uses that General Fund (according to many sources) like it is his own personal piggy-bank.

This is an important lesson for the Church and for pastors…your sin will find you out. Don’t abuse God’s children.

Monday Morning Conversation: Why the “church” has lost its Moral Authority and evangelicalism will continue its decline

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In reference to the broken/sinful condition of humanity:

“Inordinate guilt feelings is pathological…and no guilt feelings is even more pathological”

-Tim Keller

Like · Comment · 
  • 4 people like this.
  • Alex Joye There is no need for guilt when you create your own narrative and justify your bad actions as “protecting the MINISTRY of the Lord!”
    1 hr · Like
  • Bryan Stupar Alex, thats exactly Keller’s point. He went on to say that when our narrative contains no authority higher than ourselves (God, god/goddess, etc), then we write the rules, omitting the guilt rendering it superfluous.
    55 mins · Unlike · 1
  • Bryan Stupar In other words, much of modern western culture.
    55 mins · Like · 1
  • Alex Joye Unfortunately, the church writes its own rules as well…and creates a hierarchy of ‘sins’ that it makes peace with…while taboo’ing other sins. For instance, Gluttony, Pride, Lying, Divorce…not a big deal, very well tolerated…whereas Homosexuality is a major taboo.
  • Lisa Silveira Good word!
  • Alex Joye I can see no greater sin than Pride and creating a Cult-of-Personalities of church leaders…yet that dynamic is actually encouraged and promoted by the church…whereas other taboo sins raise the ire of those same church-goers. Very troubling.
    50 mins · Edited · Like
  • Alex Joye The church (evangelical) feels no guilt for the sins of making mega-rich mega-stars and building altars to its celebrity leaders and showering them with money and adoration…while largely ignoring those Jesus said we are to spend our time and attention helping (including our own families). The followers are probably more responsible than the leaders they raise up and put on the pedestals. Yet, no guilt…none at all.
  • Alex Joye I doubt any will feel any guilt over this, but I personally refuse to support “ministries” that are pretty much rich/wealthy cult-of-personalities that create their own narrative and create their own morality…while doing the opposite of what I read about Jesus in the Gospels.
  • Alex Joye Unfortunately, the “church” is as much responsible for the “modern western culture” as anything else…the church is a part of that culture and has helped shape that culture both by what it promotes as well as by the hypocrisy it demonstrates to those outside the church. The church can be very instructive by what it says, what it does, what it ignores, what it tolerates, what it rails against. The church lost its “moral authority” a long time ago.
  • Bryan Stupar The reality is we all struggle to submit our wills to God. 

    We all have blind spots where we make our own rules…and when we do you can be certain that suffering isn’t to far behind.
  • Alex Joye “The reality is we all struggle to submit our wills to God. ” Yes, and what is that? I don’t believe “god’s will” is based on the authority of a particular church sect and what its gurus tell you is “god’s will”…as those leaders have no moral authority as exampled by their own immorality and their own injustice.
  • Alex Joye For example, the Calvary Chapel sect says it has no authority with regards to moral matters within its own Group…yet claims it has the moral authority to speak against those outside their church like the evil homosexuals etc.
  • Alex Joye 1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
  • Alex Joye “and when we do you can be certain that suffering isn’t to far behind.” Those who create their own narrative will simply spin this as “God promises tough times and persecution for his holy righteous followers!”
  • Alex Joye And, of course, those tough times or consequences to bad actions will simply be spun as “it’s an attack from the devil! Woe is me!” Again, it’s largely a bunch of b.s. Bryan and you’ve seen it first hand in your own church sect among your leaders.
  • Alex Joye A part of the church has lost its moral authority and for good reason. There are still lots of good things that churches do and some church sects have a much better record than others…but the decline in evangelicalism is largely a direct result of the church’s own doing. Sowing and Reaping principal in action.
  • Alex Joye To be crystal clear, none of this is directed to you personally, Bryan. I think you are sincere and doing the best you can while being affiliated with a bad organization.
  • Alex Joye

Calvary Chapel Godspeak Thousand Oaks wins Religious Freedom court battle after firing two teachers

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A federal judge ruled recently that Calvary Chapel Godspeak (Thousand Oaks) was within their rights to fire two teachers who worked at a separate Christian school it owned…because the teachers would not comply with requests to provide references from their pastors about their church attendance and their faith.

Lynda Serrano and Marie Ellen Guevara sued the church for “religious discrimination and wrongful termination” after they were fired for not cooperating with the church-owned school’s new policy.

The crux of the ruling focused on the First Amendment and the judge’s opinion that the church-owned school was within its rights to make the requests and then to fire personnel it deemed as non-compliant or not up to the religious standards set by the church-owned school…because the two teachers are akin to “ministers” since they lead the children in prayer and take them to “chapel” which is a form of church.

According to the L.A. Times: “A 2012 Supreme Court ruling gave religious organizations exemption from federal discrimination laws. The court ruled that the matter would be a case between two religious parties where the government cannot intervene.”

Link to full L.A. Times article here: http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-religious-school-lawsuit-20150330-story.html

Calvary Chapel Pastor James Flanders arrested for murder of his mistress who gave birth to his child: “Cold Justice” Investigation shows cult-dynamic

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Calvary Chapel Pastor James Flanders arrested for murder.

Calvary Chapel Pastor James Flanders arrested for murder.

Calvary Chapel Pastor, James Flanders, was arrested today on suspicion of murdering his mistress, Marie Carlson, who gave birth to his child in 2011.

The unsolved murder case was recently featured on the cable t.v. show “Cold Justice” which documented the strange disappearance of Carlson as well as the Flanders’ connection.

According to CBS Affiliate WTVY Channel 4, “Marie was reportedly last seen on October 17, 2011 by Flanders, the father of her then newborn child, at the home on Revere Avenue that they shared with Flanders’s wife. Flanders told investigators Marie was there when he left the residence between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. on October 17th. She was later reported missing/endangered to the Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office on October 24, 2011 by her ex-husband, Jeff Carlson. Carlson, who resides in Kentucky with his and Marie’s 8 year old daughter, became concerned after being unable to make contact with Marie.”

Calvary Chapel has become well-known for its many scandals including Pastors who have been arrested for child molestation, murder, prostitution solicitation, financial fraud, domestic violence and a litany of other crimes. Calvary Chapel continues to endorse and protect other “affiliated” Pastors who are currently accused by their children of child molestation as well as physical child abuse.

Flanders’ Calvary Chapel Emerald Coast franchise is located in Florida.

You can view the full CBS Affiliate WTVY Channel 4 story here:

http://www.wtvy.com/home/headlines/Former-Pastor-Arrested-In-Cold-Case-303802301.html

“COLD JUSTICE” EPISODE: Calvary Chapel Pastor James Flanders’ murder of his mistress Marie Carlson:

Sources say Paul Grenier recants his child molestation accusations against his father Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia

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Sources report that Paul Grenier, son of Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia, has issued a statement to Calvary Chapel members and others in which he recants the testimony he gave under oath in a court declaration in a defamation lawsuit brought by his parents Bob and Gayle Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia against Tim Taylor and Alex Joye-Grenier (their step-son). The lawsuit is currently before the Tulare County Superior Court.

The case is still ongoing and there is a trial date set for September 13, 2016.

CalvaryChapelAbuse.com Commentary and Opinion: From day one I have sought the truth in these matters and reported things that are in the Public’s Interest. Paul Grenier was a trusted named source with a compelling story until this very recent statement.

Here is the text that was sent to me by a source and confirmed by other sources. Paul Grenier and Calvary Chapel authorities were contacted for comment, and at the time of publication have not responded.

“Hello:  

   I wanted to take a moment of your time to update you on some positive news regarding my family. As you may know, there has been a divide within our family for a number of years. I wanted to take this opportunity to clarify statements made by me regarding my father, Bob Grenier. Additionally, I would like to provide some insight into circumstances surrounding those statements. My goal with this letter is to apologize, rebuild trust and to take back my prior statements.   On February 8, 2013, I executed a Declaration in support of my brother’s defense in the lawsuit between he and my parents. In that declaration, I accused Bob Grenier of molesting me. That did not happen.   At the time I executed the Declaration I was suffering from long term drug and alcohol addiction. This struggle has been something I have had tried to overcome since I was 16 years old. Throughout my early and mid-20’s I was in-volved in unhealthy forms of mental therapy. Specifically, repressed memory counseling and various forms of going “clear” through the Church of Scientology. In addition to these forms of counseling, there are large portions of the last 12 years that I do no remember due to the sheer number of prescription drugs racing through my body.   In March of 2015, I suffered a drug overdose as a result of my long term drug addiction and desire to commit suicide. Fortunately, I survived.   I feel tremendously blessed to have the support of my parents through what has been a very trying time for all of us. After struggling with mental health and addiction issues for the better half of my life, I have now been able to retain my sobriety and discontinue any drug use whatsoever. I am working with a counselor toward a better life and strengthening my mental and physical health while at the same time attempting to better understand some of the regretful and hurtful actions I have taken.   I regret executing the Declaration wherein I accused Bob Grenier of molesting me. This was done at a time where I was suffering so deeply with memory loss, drug addiction and a true inability to decipher fact from fiction. Many days I was in a catatonic state.   Further, I was unable to accurately recall details of my past. With that said, I would like you to know that I recant in its entirety the Declaration that was executed by me on February 8, 2013. Specifically, the statements that Bob Grenier was a child molester or molested me. 
   My goal today is to move forward with my life and re-build a healthy and loving relationship with my parents. I feel very blessed to have such supportive, forgiving people in my life to help guide me in making healthy choices. While there is much I cannot disclose about my past life, I hope I have been able to share enough with you to help provide some insight into my thoughts and mental state at the time these accusations were made by me.   Many of you I have known since I was a child and I would continue to ask for your prayers for my entire family. No family is perfect. In fact, many families suffer from a myriad of problems. I am quickly learning that being kind to-ward people might make all the difference in their day. You truly do not know what a stranger may be struggling with in that very moment.   In closing, I would like to thank you for supporting Bob and Gayle through this painful ordeal. I would also like to humbly ask that you continue to stand by them as your support means the world to them. Although I cannot go back and make a brand new start, I can start from today and make a brand new ending. 
  
Respectfully,
Paul Grenier”

Here is a link to Paul Grenier’s original Declaration given under oath that he is now recanting (click the red link below):

http://thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/P.-Grenier-Declaration-iso-SMTS-text.pdf

A “Professor” and Pastor ask “What is Salvation?” I’ve been asking and answering that question for over 20 years…

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Posted Publicly on Pastor Alan Hawkins Facebook page. Alan is a friend and a good dude. I think this is an important issue to discuss….and there are no easy answers:

So this is my professor and he is wanting feedback. Take a close look and reply if you will. Dr. Ruthven is challenging some protestant expositions.

WHAT IS “SALVATION”?

In response to a query from a friend, I am working through what “salvation” means. Certainly, in traditional Christian theology, “salvation” means being forgiven of sins, regenerated and being good, then in a position to go to heaven. I just attended a church service where I heard exactly that.

In the Synoptics, however, “salvation” pretty much always means “healing” or “rescue.” Even in Mt 1:21 and Hb 9:28 Jesus’ “saving” from sins may have had a primary referent to the broken covenant penalties of Dt 28, not simply going to hell, hence, the emphasis on healing in the NT “gospel.”

Since the Synoptic Gospels (Mt, Mk, Lk) were written, mostly later, as summaries and “big picture” correctives to a Christianity that immediately began to drift off course in so many ways, we ought to take these Gospels (and John) as our prime source, and not dismiss them as “historical prologue” to the “real stuff”–“justification by faith” in Paul, as Luther and Calvin taught. (Paul was more amenable to Protestant “demythologizing” of the Gospel than the Gospels themselves).

The Gospels, then, were attempts to reset and recenter Jesus’ original mission and message. Based on the direction church doctrine took after the introduction of the Gospels, it seems that this “reset” didn’t really succeed. Maybe that success would come far in the future, but certainly not from the 2nd century and thereafter, where Christianity increasingly became an exercise in human/demonic speculation and pontificating (creeds and apologetics), not revelation and power. In the NT, demons always “knew” perfect “theology”; they did not “know” God in the way of knowing that God requires.

In my view, we can’t persist in the charismatic tweaking of the Protestant ordo salutis: get “saved,” then filled with the Spirit. The NT seems to promote John the Baptist’s program of “repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” It seems to me that “repent” means to move from a basic epistemology of the “wrong tree” to the tree of life: moving from the Serpent’s words to the Spirit’s. The immediate goal here is “obedience.” (Paul’s mission was “obedience from the Gentiles”). You can’t “obey” God until you, in some sense, hear his voice telling us what to obey.

There was a man who said he couldn’t become a Christian until he gave up his cigarettes. Normally, I would respond that he needed a “salvation” experience which would then empower him to give up the habit. But I wonder if this man and his cigarettes may have been God’s test to show if he was really going to obey God’s revelation: was he going to hear and obey God in this defining test or not? The cigarettes, by themselves, are trivial, the test of obedience is everything–the first step toward “salvation” that is, life in the revealing, empowering Spirit/presence of God. “Repent” means “turning in the opposite direction”–away from one way of living to another: it involves a basic decision, and action, for total change.

SALVATION IS DEFINED IN THE NT AS ENTERING THE NEW COVENANT defined in Acts 2:39, citing Isa 59:21, and 2 Cor 3, describing Jer 31:33 (also Heb 12:18-25), receiving the New Covenant Spirit of prophecy and power. THIS IS THE MISSION OF JESUS DEFINED IN ALL FOUR GOSPELS: “He will baptize in the Holy Spirit.”

I think, therefore, that the defining pattern for becoming a “Christian” is Acts 2:38-39, and its citation of Isa 59:21–a citation that traditional theology has denied: it is a single package of repentance, baptism, to the goal of receiving the Spirit (the charismatic Spirit of prophecy and power).

“THIS is my covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

So the goal and expression of “salvation” is really the “baptism in the Holy Spirit,” which means, you are immersed in God’s presence, communication, and life. This is the opposite of living “in the flesh”–human weakness without God’s empowering, leading to death. A “man of the Spirit” or a “man of God” in the Bible is one who was a prophet: one who lived in the voice, obedience and power of God to heal and deliver from demonic influence. THIS is “salvation” in the NT. This essentially charismatic experience is flatly denied in traditional Protestantism (e.g., Sect. 1, Westminster Confession).

So, to “repent and be baptized” means to choose the basic way of “hearing” to the Spirit, to be “washed” of that former way of thinking/heeding (the source of all “sins”), and then entering into the realm of God’s Spirit–the power of revelation and power, “cleansed” of demonic input.

One example of how far the Protestant notion of “salvation” drifted is the case of the Philippian jailer: “What must I do to be saved” meant: “How can I have my sins forgiven and go to heaven!” Talk about “demythologizing!” What he was asking was, “The government is going to kill me and enslave my family if these prisoners escape! How do I avoid that?” Paul’s answer was the universal answer to ALL the desperate situations of ALL mankind: “Have faith (hear God’s voice and obey) in the Lord Jesus Christ–all that he taught and modeled about hearing and obeying the Father/Spirit–and you will be rescued from every evil–in God’s own way !”–including the problem of the prisoners escaping.

The basic difference between traditional “salvation” and that of the NT is as follows:

Traditional emphasis: 1) man in sinful state going to hell. 2) ordo salutis, behaves ethically, 3) qualifies for heaven

New Testament emphasis: 1) man denying revelation from God (Rom 1); life in chaos, suffering penalties of Dt 28; 2) hears/heeds revelation, repents (heeds God, not serpent), is “baptized” in Spirit, able to hear and obey and become a charismatic evangelist/disciple as per mandate of Mark 3:14-15 (actually, the mandate for Adam–all mankind), and further spelled out in, e.g., Lk 9&10, Mt 28:19-20; Acts 1:8. The NT emphasis on “salvation,” then, is not on getting “saved” from hell, but to become a Spirit-filled disciple as the NT defines it.

In both cases, of course, hell and heaven are ultimate factors. It’s just that the NT concentrates on the here-and-now and how to be “providers” of God’s “grace/charisms” whereas in the Protestant system you are “saved” to be a permanent, paying “consumer” of ecclesiastical services, including “salvation.” I realize this is an extreme caricature of these positions, but it’s to show the contrast.

Bottom line: I don’t think we should assume the Protestant meaning of “salvation” if we are to get at the NT goals for human existence.
To tradition, “salvation” was getting rid of sins to qualify for heaven. To the NT, “salvation” was deliverance from a demonic way of knowing to a life of revelation in the Spirit of prophecy and power–obedience to God and assuming the mandate of Mark 3:14-15.

Feedback appreciated !

Like   Comment   
  • 9 people like this.
  • Alex Joye Happy to answer. But he probably won’t like it smile emoticon
  • Alex Joye I have been asking and answering that question for over 20 years.
  • Alan Hawkins I assure you that your answer would not unhinge the professor.
    • Hide 23 Replies
    • Alex Joye I’m sure it wouldn’t, he has his mind made up.
    • Alex Joye …or at least his apologetic
    • Alex Joye Pride and fear. It’s why the “professor” will never get a glimpse of the real Truth. He’s too proud to humble himself that he doesn’t know…and too fearful to be brutally honest about things. It’s only when you get to that place that I think you get a glimpse at the Truth.
    • Alex Joye Men like him spend their entire lives chasing an Apologetic and finding more sophisticated ways to appear like they know something to gullible folks.
    • Alan Hawkins You are way out of line Alex and you have no idea the price he has paid and by the way he lived in Idaho for a long time. He went there as a refugee and critic of the system and lived in hiddenness and personal self sacrifice for a long time so take care with your analysis of somebody you don’t know.
    • Alex Joye Ask him what he thinks of my comments. Then tell me his response. Then I’ll tell you what the Truth is about him.
    • Alex Joye …but don’t tell him you are going to tell me his response or his defense mechanism will make him answer dishonestly.
    • Alan Hawkins Alex making judgements and assumptions about people you do not know is so far out of line it makes you someone that people cannot interact with.
    • Alex Joye Tell me what he says after reading my comments w/o telling him you’ll tell me…then I’ll know an awful lot about him.
      Like · Reply · 21 hrs
    • Alex Joye We’ll find out the Truth of what he knows and not the B.S. veneer.
      Like · Reply · 21 hrs
    • Alan Hawkins No I will not mediate such a thing… go to his page and communicate directly.
      Like · Reply · 21 hrs
    • Alex Joye No problem. I can already guess how it will go b/c I’ve tested many like him. I don’t need to know…but it sounds like some of your readers would benefit from finding out whether his supposed knowledge actually means anything in real life.
      Like · Reply · 21 hrs
    • Alex Joye …I can tell you from having tested many a man…the higher the pedestal…the farther the fall….and much of what they toil after means nothing when push comes to shove.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs · Edited
    • Alex Joye High probability he would respond in a very defensive manner, his pride would be tweaked. He would then go into a rigorous defense of his apologetic or he would simply name-call politely and dismiss me when it got difficult to resolve and defend his position. Very unlikely he would spend the time to have an intellectually honest discussion, and very unlikely he would come to the conclusion based on that discussion that he really doesn’t know very much for sure…as that is too humbling and fearful a position for men like him.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs
    • Alex Joye THAT is where the proverbial rubber meets the road. I have a gift for peeling back the veneer. It’s not pleasant for those who it is applied to…but it produces more real-world Truth than the PR and veneer of Religion.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs
    • Alex Joye You’re a good dude Alan. I’ve sifted you just a little and you generally come up as a good man. Not intending any of this toward you personally.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs
    • Alex Joye I come at things from very different angles. It’s not conventional…but it is very effective.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs
    • Alex Joye One thing I know well…humans and human nature.
      Like · Reply · 20 hrs
    • Alan Hawkins Since you know human nature you know that if you attack someone there are very few who would endure an unprovoked attack with any assumption that you are a benevolent reasonable person.
      Like · Reply · 38 mins
    • Alex Joye Hey, I didn’t say the Jesus stuff was easy…just calling b.s. and you’ll find out the real story when push comes to shove. Supposedly you are “transformed” when saved….no? Err, not so much.
      Like · Reply · 30 mins
    • Alex Joye He’ll respond just like most everyone does…which is not very much like Jesus.
      Like · Reply · 30 mins
    • Alex Joye Easy to preach the stuff, easy to make careers of it, to get degrees in it, to write books about it. Much harder to actually do it.
      Like · Reply · 29 mins
    • Alex Joye As you stated, everyone will respond in a similar manner to adversity, to provocation, etc. Jesus taught very clearly how to respond to that…yet very few can do it in real life. Yet, you sell a “Transformation Gospel”…and yet very very very few humans can do what Jesus said you are to do. So who is fooling who? The “professor” can engage in intellectual masturbation all he wants and tell you how smart he is and what “real salvation” is…but it probably isn’t true or contains some truth, but is not the Absolute. Truth is, we don’t really know what “salvation” is. Most humans respond the same way to a variety of things. They may change some of their behaviors like getting off of drugs, kicking a bad alcohol habit, etc…but many do that through non-religious means as well, and Mormons and other Sects report very similar “testimonies” and “transformations”…heck even the Scientologists report “transformations”. But, when push comes to shove, the vast majority of humans respond the same way to adversity, provocation etc either overtly or in their hearts. The Gospel doesn’t “transform” you that much at all. So what is “Salvation”?
      Like · Reply · 4 mins

Saeed Abedini’s wife breaks the Calvary Chapel “no talk” rule and outs “abuse” in her marriage

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Christianity Today reports that Saeed Abedini’s wife, Nagmeh, outs “abuse” in her marriage and halts her public advocacy for his release.

This public disclosure opens up Nagmeh to a defamation lawsuit, very similar to what Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia has been doing for years…and Calvary Chapel Association and Calvary Chapel is likely to remain silent and back Saeed as is their practice over the years.

Read the full story here:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/november-web-only/pastor-saeed-abedini-wife-naghmeh-halts-public-advocacy.html?&visit_source=twitter


The true expression of the Evangelical Celebrity-driven “ministry” god and “Gospel”

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As I’m perusing my Facebook news feed this morning…something I am addicted…err, prone to do…this catchy, snappy post caught my attention: “Ha ha! I’m still alive! So I’ll go ahead and share the Gospel. Thanks Lord.” Turns out it was Pete J. Courson…son of the Courson Tribe…Celebrity Guru Status in the Calvary Chapel “Non” Denomination with tentacles all over the planet.

First off, I have no personal beef with Peter J. or his pops, John. While they seem to be typical Celebrity Gurus in Evangelicalism and still under the general Tent of Calvary Chapel…they don’t seem to be particularly dooshy like others of their “associated” or non-associated brethren. In fact, Pete seems a good guy in general…my one criticism being that he seems to like the adulation of being a mini-Celebrity quite a bit. I have followed him for awhile online…and while he tries to say he doesn’t like celebrity or promote celebrity…he engages in the same Dynamic that perpetuates it and doesn’t instruct others otherwise.

What I witnessed this morning is very typical….and I’m only singling out Pete because it is a fresh example and prompted the “holy spirit” in me to speak up…or maybe it’s the devil or the demons since my enemies say I’m the Anti-Christ…who knows. It’s probably just me being me, which is a critical thinker who has a very acute bullshit meter…especially when it comes to “religion” and “church” in today’s Evangelical Sub-culture.

Celebrity pastor-kid has some health issues, legit stuff, not funny…we all do or will someday…none of us are getting off this rock alive. Celebrity pastor-kid takes some sort of leave to deal with the health issues….folks in droves express their blessings and prayers and kiss his ass in a fashion only seen on par when it is a sports hero or movie star or a Kardashian. Celebrity pastor-kid has some sort of “miraculous” comeback and makes a simple post on Facebook….and then the Ass-kiss-pocalypse ensues.

It was truly amazing to watch…and I’m sure it will go on all day.

What is “the Gospel” of mainstream Evangelicalism in the USA today? It’s a Celebrity-driven, “Ministry” driven Gospel and resembles nothing I see of the example of Jesus in the Newer Testament. Not speaking against this perverse Dynamic is supporting the perpetuation of this perverse Dynamic.

Here’s the very beginning of the avalanche…and the point is this…if it was some guy you never heard of who attended and gave and served at that church his whole life but never got the spotlight and just did his thing quietly for Jesus…you’d never have known he had a health crisis…and you’d never have known if he recovered….and you NEVER would see this sort of adulation and support. THAT is your Celebrity-driven Evangelical “Gospel”…a big part of it.

Ha ha! I’m still alive! So I’ll go ahead and share the Gospel. Thanks Lord.

185 people like this.
Comments
Kathy Wilson

Kathy Wilson YAYYYYY!!!

Like · Reply · 1 · 19 mins
Patrick Linares

Patrick Linares so happy you are well

Like · Reply · 19 mins
Jackie Lauer

Jackie Lauer Our God is amazing. He heard us 

Like · Reply · 1 · 19 mins
Melissa Ventura

Melissa Ventura Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

Like · Reply · 2 · 18 mins
Helen Sederquist Eglett

Helen Sederquist Eglett You’re chipper this morn! Love it up, PJ!!! Praise God! BTW – Angels let Cowgill go yesterday:(…

Like · Reply · 18 mins
Peter-John Courson

Peter-John Courson Thank you everybody!

Like · Reply · 2 · 17 mins
Jan Endicott

Jan Endicott And we are so happy you are doing well! Praise our Father  smile emoticon

Like · Reply · 17 mins
Dan Shepard

Dan Shepard Praise God

Like · Reply · 17 mins
Joyce Fischer Linn Bell

Joyce Fischer Linn Bell God is good all the time!

Like · Reply · 1 · 17 mins
Vicki Berlin

Vicki Berlin Thank you, Jesus! I am sooooo thrilled with God’s miracle in your life! Welcome back, I missed you!!!

Like · Reply · 16 mins
Hope Rhodes

Hope Rhodes You Rock Peter-John Courson. God is so good!!

Like · Reply · 14 mins · Edited
MikenLaurie Swales

MikenLaurie Swales Praise God!! Still praying for you…

Like · Reply · 14 mins
Peter-John Courson

Peter-John Courson I am amazed at this feedback. Don’t know why you all care so much but am extremely moved….

Like · Reply · 3 · 14 mins
Becca Brand

Becca Brand Pete – So good to know you’re doing better. Praise God!

Like · Reply · 1 · 14 mins
Cheryl Thompson Kron

Cheryl Thompson Kron Praise God!

Like · Reply · 1 · 14 mins
Larry Petersen

Larry Petersen Evidence your work is not done. He wants to continue to use you!

Like · Reply · 1 · 14 mins
Joy Kilishek

Joy Kilishek Such a blessing to see your post. Sending love to you and the fam.

Like · Reply · 1 · 14 mins
Jeannie Montaño

Jeannie Montaño Our God is an Awesome God!

Like · Reply · 1 · 13 mins
Carol Milligan

Carol Milligan Praise God Peter John!

Like · Reply · 1 · 12 mins
Henry Hank Jones

Henry Hank Jones Is this Peters ghost?

Like · Reply · 1 · 12 mins
Rodgers Sharon

Rodgers Sharon Praise God!!  grin emoticon

Like · Reply · 1 · 11 mins
Vicki Berlin

Vicki Berlin We care because God made you an awesome person and teacher of his Word

Like · Reply · 1 · 10 mins
Douglas Craven

Douglas Craven So great he is!

Like · Reply · 1 · 10 mins
David Burgin

David Burgin So happy to hear this. Praying and believing and rejoicing !

Like · Reply · 1 · 10 mins
Alexander Dawit
Alexander Dawit Amen! ….I will not die but live,
and I will proclaim what the Lord has done ..psalm 118
Like · Reply · 1 · 9 mins
Vicki Berlin

Vicki Berlin And you are FUNNY

Like · Reply · 1 · 9 mins
Ronda Mcmurtry Zmak

Ronda Mcmurtry Zmak What a joyful moment to see you back !!!!!!

Like · Reply · 9 mins
Paige Dinsmore

Paige Dinsmore HALLELUJAH!!!

Like · Reply · 1 · 9 mins
Shannon Widman Daily

Shannon Widman Daily Peter-John Courson, you are an answer to many prayers. Praising the Lord for you. So thankful for you

Like · Reply · 1 · 8 mins
Francesca Jones

Francesca Jones Yes!! Praise God!

Like · Reply · 1 · 8 mins
Sue Leary Saunders

Sue Leary Saunders All praise and glory to God!

Like · Reply · 1 · 8 mins
Angela Vermilion

Angela Vermilion Great news! So happy to read this! God bless you and your family!

Like · Reply · 7 mins
Alex Joye

Alex Joye LOL, love that post.

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Jackie Rose Aicinena

Jackie Rose Aicinena Ha ha ;-))) 

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Kalina Justice

Kalina Justice In all things

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Kalina Justice replied · 1 Reply
Keiko Linda Prideaux

Keiko Linda Prideaux Praise and glory to JESUS!!! HE fights for us!!!

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Alex Joye

Alex Joye …but what is “the Gospel” really?

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Dawn Griffiths

Dawn Griffiths Amen!! Xoxo

Like · Reply · 5 mins
Alex Joye

Alex Joye Today’s evangelical “Gospel” seems to be this: “You must believe in a particular set of ‘correct doctrines’…and you must be ‘transformed’ and keep up a particular list of ‘morality’ but some things we’re OK with like Gluttony…other things send you straight to hell like homosexuality”

Like · Reply · 4 mins
Dina Smith
Dina Smith Pastor Pete praying for continued strength & wisdom
Preach it preacher!! Love in Jesus
Like · Reply · 3 mins
Jorge Moreno

Jorge Moreno Praise the Lord my brother.

Like · Reply · 1 · 3 mins
Kim Koeth Sisneros

Kim Koeth Sisneros Praise the Lord!!!!!

Like · Reply · 2 mins
Alex Joye

Alex Joye …and welcome back smile emoticon You’re still alive and I thought I’d interject some real stuff vs. the massive ass-kissing you are in the middle of receiving.

Like · Reply · 2 mins
Hanne Westcott

Hanne Westcott AWESOME GOD WE HAVE!

Like · Reply · 2 mins
Diana Burnham

Diana Burnham That is soooooooo like our God.

Like · Reply · 1 min
Steve Pulver

Steve Pulver SO R A D ! heart emoticon heart emoticon heart emoticon < =ODSee Translation

Like · Reply · 1 min
Alex Joye

Write a reply…
 
Carolyn Hornbaker-Summers

Carolyn Hornbaker-Summers its just amazing to watch you recover. its absolutley a miracle! i was reading your book thinking about all you have gone thru with chrons, and that was written BEFORE this near death experience! your testimony will continue to help people all the moreSee More

Like · Reply · Just now
Alex Joye

Alex Joye What an aphrodisiac being in an evangelical Celebrity family is. Just in awe of it, it is such a strong dynamic and pull. Human Nature is what it is. Not much can be done about it…and that is a truer Gospel.

Like · Reply · Just now
John Becker

John Becker The one who created the universe listens when we cry out to Him!

Don’t hold back Peter-John! Run the race!

Like · Reply · Just now
Dallas Delhousaye

Dallas Delhousaye GO PJ! cant wait

Like · Reply · Just now
Alex Joye

Alex Joye How many would fawn over the regular schmuck who attends regularly his whole life at an evangelical mega-church…unknown, not on the stage. Very very very few would even notice if that guy had a health crisis and then came back out of it.

Like · Reply · Just now
Alex Joye

Alex Joye This is actually quite disgusting. Shame on you folks. And remarkably you don’t even see it and I’m sure will attack me for pointing out the Truth.

Like · Reply · Just now

Naghmeh Abedini bombshell: “Saeed abused us”…A symptom of Calvary Chapel’s Domestic Violence and Child Abuse Problem

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Naghmeh Abedini has gone public with Domestic Violence allegations against her Calvary Chapel pastor husband, Saeed Abedini.

Naghmeh Abedini has gone public with Domestic Violence allegations against her Calvary Chapel pastor husband, Saeed Abedini.

Naghmeh Abedini is my hero.

Domestic Violence and Child Abuse are issues near and dear to my heart….especially as a Child Abuse survivor and witness to much abuse at the hands of Bob Grenier, our Calvary Chapel pastor and step-dad.

It takes a lot of guts and courage to publicly confront these issues. I know, I’ve been ravaged online over and over, been maligned, sold-out, betrayed, even sued by Pastor Bob Grenier and my own mother for speaking publicly about his Abusiveness and Paul Grenier’s molestation allegations that he made under oath and to an Eagle, Idaho police detective, a prominent Child Abuse advocate, Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph, myself, many media outlets and bloggers and many others.

Paul Grenier made a suicide attempt after the Appellate Court rejected the Anti-Slapp motion and was visited a few months later (if memory serves). Soon after those visits….after over a decade of shunning from Camp Bob Grenier….Paul suddenly agreed to some sort of recanting of his molestation story. Paul’s recant is posted on this blog for your consideration…though it is not a recantation under oath. Many are suspicious about the sudden contact from Camp Bob and the subsequent rather abrupt recant after so many years of telling a consistent story to many.

Robert Grenier Jr. called me and several others a few years back and accused Paul Grenier of “molesting” him. I was floored. I didn’t want to believe it initially. The details, according to Robert Grenier Jr., went like this….he and Paul were engaged in “sodomy” and “oral sex” for several years in Pastor Bob’s home. Robert Jr. is a year younger than Paul and has always been physically larger. A “molestation” didn’t add up to me….but an ongoing incestuous relationship did….and where did this sort of perversion come from?

I know Bob Grenier exposed himself to me and Geoff often….walking around us naked as a common practice…genitals fully exposed to us. I remember Bob making me shower with him when I was 10 years old. It was very weird. Creepy in fact. Those are the only details of the showering I will disclose in this article. The whole memory of abuse is very upsetting….to this very day.

Naghmeh Abedini’s story is harrowing. I know what she is going through. She is already facing massive public scrutiny for speaking up about Domestic Abuse by her Calvary Chapel husband. “Private family matter” is the narrative from Calvary Chapel and Camp Bob Grenier with regards to his abuse….I’m hearing similar leveled at Naghmeh. Saeed has come out publicly denying the abuse. Where does Calvary Chapel stand? Is this a “private family matter”? Is Calvary Chapel going to side with Saeed as they have done with Bob Grenier, their “affiliated” Pastor?

The issues of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse are NOT “private family matters”….they are serious issues of Public Interest and very bad evils to confront…publicly…especially when the Abuser is a Pastor in a Position of Trust in our Society.

Naghmeh is a brave woman. She is doing the right thing. My own mother sold me out for my Abuser and their “ministry”…I am proud of Naghmeh for doing the hard thing and the right thing. She is to be admired and supported….and I applaud her for speaking out publicly as a way to inform the Public that these issues DO HAPPEN in “church” and Calvary Chapel…and they are wrong. They are not “private family matters” no matter how many times Calvary Chapel and Camp Bob Grenier repeat that mantra and sue and stomp their feet and hiss.

The Macro-Calvary Chapel Dynamic encourages spouses and women to “submit” to their Calvary Chapel Pastor husbands….and to keep things a “private family matter”. To speak out is to violate the Calvary Chapel “No Talk” rule. It is looked down upon and punished. It is wrong. It needs to change.

I am re-engaged in the Fight. I am going to redouble my efforts. I support Naghmeh and I will fight to the end with everything I’ve got.

Saeed Abedini arrested for Domestic Assault, filed guilty plea in 2007

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Saeed Abedini's arrest record for Domestic Assault and guilty plea in 2007.

Saeed Abedini’s arrest record for Domestic Assault and guilty plea in 2007.

“Save Saeed!”

How about save his wife and kids. Attached is Saeed Abedini’s arrest for Domestic Assault and his guilty plea in 2007. Naghmeh Abedini has gone public with abuse allegations….and already Calvary Chapel is circling the wagons and standing by their man….just like with their beloved Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia who is accused of molestation and physical child abuse by his sons/step-sons.

Link to readable Arrest Record:

https://spiritualsoundingboard.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/2007-saeed-abedinigalangashi-case-history-2.jpg

Calvary Chapel’s lax stance and enabling of Domestic Abuse and Child Abuse has to stop.

The Calvary Chapel church sect and Non-Denomination Denomination rails at the outsiders….the homosexuals, the heathens outside their walls…and finds all manner of excuse to wag its collective fingers at everyone else….except themselves. That is the OPPOSITE of what their bible teaches and they claim they teach “simply”.

1 Corinthians 5:12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

Nope, not Calvary Chapel. They can hold mega-conferences, raise millions of dollars, band together for all sorts of Christian-entertainment and idiotic “Prophecy Conferences”….which is a real Profit-cy endeavor. My prophecy? They are always wrong…but collect a lot of money from the suckers.

Hey, Calvary Chapel….deal with your own garbage. You guys suck. Your pastors are no different than any other walk of life…in fact, many times are much worse. I know where a lot of the bodies are buried, I know many of your scandals. You promote yourselves as “Specially Anointed by God!” and sell a false “Transformation Gospel!” You put on appearances, you put yourselves on a stage and at a podium to be worshipped. You promote yourselves as something you are not. You are liars.

Then when the scandal fires get too hot and you can’t weasel out of your bullshit….you then claim, “Well, we’re all just sinners! Don’t put any of us on a pedestal! Grace covers a multitude of sins!” Ya, how about lead with that and get your asses off the pedestals that YOU erect for yourselves…and stop wagging YOUR fingers at all the other sinners.

Matthew 23. You guys are a bunch of jerks. I’m a jerk, too….but you’ll know it up front because I’ll tell you….and I won’t be a lying hypocrite making money from selling your false Calvary Chapel “transformation” bullshit gospel for greedy gain and following and building your CC franchise “ministry”.

Pretty much how all Evangelical Christian discussions go: Good friendly example of the common response to the major issues I have with Certainty in the typical Christian Apologetic

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what-is-the-truthThanks to my friends for putting up with me and my incurable curiosity and search for the Truth.

If you are so inclined, the following is a pretty good example of how pretty much all the discussions I’ve had with Evangelical believers, pastors even theologians goes. It presents the basics of my particular unresolved issues with regards to the typical “Christian” Apologetic….and some food (not bread 😉 ) for thought.

Click the link below to read the thread.

Christianity discussion

Peyton Manning and Calvary Chapel Pastors: Our heroes are flawed and power, money, influence keeps you out of jail

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Peyton Manning made the news again….but not for his second Super Bowl victory.

This time around, it was an article by the fake-black-guy and race-baiter extraordinaire, Shaun King….who outted the details of a long-quiet little know sex assault allegation and subsequent defamation lawsuit between Peyton Manning and his victim, a female trainer now doctor.

Sport Illustrated picked up the story here: Peyton Manning sex assault story

In commenting publicly on the scandal, I was reminded how similar the dynamic is when reporting on the abuses and wrongdoings of Calvary Chapel pastors.

The first reaction of many was, “Shaun King is a jerk! You can’t trust anything that guy says! His MOTIVE is to tarnish Peyton Manning who is white!”

Well, that is completely fallacious and a non-issue. I operate from a paradigm and matrix of Logic and Reason and facts. I don’t care if it is Satan himself presenting evidence, is the stuff likely true or likely not true?

Peyton Manning accused of sexual assault. The dynamic rings very similar to Calvary Chapel Pastor scandals.

Peyton Manning accused of sexual assault. The dynamic rings very similar to Calvary Chapel Pastor scandals.

I read King’s story….it rang true. Lots of testimonies, lots of credible witnesses, even Peyton initially denying any sort of incident…then later he acknowledged something “out of line” and “inappropriate” and similar….and changed it from “nothing happened” to a “prank gone wrong”. Very telling.

I read the articles, read the lawsuit, read everything I could that was available with regards to this little-known matter. It doesn’t look good for Peyton. He likely did what the woman said he did. It’s wrong. He should have been charged and paid the price for his bad action…but he’s Football Royalty….and so is his family. He has gone virtually untouched in this matter.

Part of his success in deflecting the issue? Tarnishing the “accuser”….running her through the mud, turning the tables on her, poisoning the well privately and publicly, using his power, money and influence to silence her and spin the situation in his favor. Very similar dynamic to Calvary Chapel Pastors and their many scandals and wrongdoings.

The fans of Peyton Manning don’t want to believe their hero is capable of such wrong. They defend him to the death, attack the “accuser”, challenge the “sources” and find all manner of reason to deflect the facts from tarnishing their Idol and hero. Again, same dynamic with Calvary Chapel Pastors….I’ve seen it many times, witnessed it first hand…still see it to this moment.

If Manning isn’t able to make this go away again…it will transition to, “Well we’re all sinners! Grace covers a multitude of sins! You need to forgive and forget! Pray for Peyton! Don’t judge!”

Meanwhile he hurt a woman, he maligned her, lied about her, made her life hell for many years….instead of initially coming clean and telling the truth and paying the price for his bad action.

Shame on Peyton Manning, shame on Calvary Chapel and Calvary Chapel Pastors who do the same thing. You don’t have “faith”, you aren’t “good”….”God” supposedly “hates” liars, they are an “abomination” to him.

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