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Convos with Fundies 1/16/14: Religion and church is more about defense and apologetics than it is about acknowledging what is truly “good” and “evil”…as this conversation asserts and then illustrates.

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  • Do you feel as if you’re unraveling? The good news is God hasn’t abandoned you, he knows (via crucifixion) what it’s like to be undone/torn and is eager to mend/repair.
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    • John Luoma Thanks for this today
      10 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Sue Roberts Needed this- thank you
      8 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Sonia Werk Bryan THAT was a much needed word! really blessed by the ministry of calvarySLO!
      5 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Pat Eroh My husband and I met today for lunch – a first in a long time.  It was nice but he said that he felt like he was drifting away from the Lord. I told him that I felt the same way. He said good, that means we can move back to God together. This “unraveling” describes it exactly. I take it that it is more than just me that God was speaking to today, but what is really cool is that it is ME too  Thank you Brian. I’m all of the way over here in Pennsylvania and you let God speak to us through you.
      4 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Alex Joye Grenier Not really, not in my experience, not in your Tribe, my former Tribe. Stuff happens. Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn’t. It’s random. If you expect much from the “church” and leaders in terms of justice or help etc, good luck LOL. When push comes to shove, it’s pretty arbitrary. The post is typical Christianeze, but it doesn’t really mean anything, not in real life. Love your kids, provide as best you can for your family and then roll with the punches. That’s all you can do. You may get through life w/o much hardship, but most will face injustice, illness, health issues, loss of loved ones, personal tragedy, financial hardships, etc. It’s just life. “God” in whatever form does not really do anything based off of your actions or prayers etc. There is zero correlation. It rains on everyone. If something goes better, it wasn’t b/c you did something or didn’t do something (unless it’s reaping and sowing principle…like you lost 50lbs. and exercised and your health improved). If something doesn’t work out, it’s not b/c you didn’t have enough faith or didn’t pray hard enough etc, sometimes it’s just your turn in life.
    • Alex Joye Grenier …and if you find yourself unraveling, go get some help from someone besides a “pastor” or church. There are trained medical professionals, psychologists, etc, who can provide you with real help.
    • Stephen Lane Proverbs 23… I have been saved
    • Craig Johnson Alex, sorry man. Hope that the Lord heals whatever hurt you experienced using men or method.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Thanks Craig, but I’ve actually gotten a lot of help outside the “church” and see things much more clearly now. Letting go of the cult-like mentality has been very healing.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Honesty and especially intellectual honesty has been very beneficial.
    • Craig Johnson Ok. but remember men are men and God is God. The men part is where the church blows it sometimes. Just dont give up on HIM.
    • Craig Johnson Many people admire Christ but not the christians so much. We need to do better. On behalf of whoever blew it, I’m sorry.
    • Alex Joye Grenier It’s a little of that, but more that Christianity* is really man’s skin put onto “god” in whatever form and is probably not nearly an accurate and certainly not an intellectually honest approach. We simply don’t know and can’t know for sure, yet man has created religion and church and “thus sayeth the Lord!” and it’s really become more of something to defend and apologize for than something that is “good”
    • Alex Joye Grenier ..it’s also become quite a career and quite a business.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Every Group has the leaders who let you down and every Group has injustice be it Christian* or Humanist or Buddhist or whatever. Man is pretty darn consistent and similarly good and bad no matter the philosophical Belief System.
    • Craig Johnson i went back to the word recently when I sorta felt that way. In the gospels I encountered afresh the person of Jesus. It cleared it up for me…
    • Craig Johnson Highly recommend it.
    • Alex Joye Grenier I like the Jesus of most of the Gospel accounts. The “Law of Love” seems to be “good”. The Jesus of the Old Testament, not so much. The Jesus of Revelation, not so much either.
    • Craig Johnson Stay in the gospels. Let him wrap his love around you then go to the rest. Otherwise, fear abounds.
    • Alex Joye Grenier The problem with appealing to the biblical “Jesus” is that you can’t really separate the Jesus who told the Isrealites to kill all the women, children, infants and animals of the Amalekites in the OT, from the “law of love” Jesus in the NT and then the Jesus who comes back on a white horse in Revelation and slaughters his enemies with a sword and then casts them into eternal torture forever.
    • Craig Johnson Get the love first and then you’ll understand the justice. Otherwise its mean and arbitrary.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Please explain. I have received no consistent and good explanation, I’ve even asked Stupar and he didn’t answer, he referred me to books and authors I’ve already read.
    • Alex Joye Grenier How is “love” expressed in torturing your enemies forever with no end? Especially in light of the statement in the Gospels to “love your enemies…as your father in heaven is perfect” by Jesus?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Why is it commanded of us humans to “love your enemies” and if we tortured our enemies it would be considered “not love”….yet God who we are told to emulate tortures his enemies in hell forever?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Justice doesn’t seem to be “love” in that context, especially due to the fact that most of humanity never heard the Gospel message…yet it is presumed they are tortured forever anyway by Christianity*, correct?
    • Craig Johnson Separation from God is not His choice its ours.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Craig, most of humanity never had a real choice, they never heard the Gospel. The Mayans, Indians, Incans, you name it, never heard. Did they have a choice?
    • Alex Joye Grenier How can you be saved if you never heard the Gospel? Are you saying folks can be saved w/o the Gospel?
    • Craig Johnson Thats why Jesus went below to preach the message before ascending. Men are judged on the light received. That is why the end is not yet.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Is it “just” and “love” to torture a human being forever in hell…and he didn’t hear the Gospel and therfore had no choice?
    • Alex Joye Grenier You’re saying Jesus went to hades? Jesus preached the Gospel in hades? People had a second chance after they died?
    • Craig Johnson Thats why it goes to the end of the earth so ALL can choose.
    • Alex Joye Grenier So if you die and never heard the Gospel, you get to hear the Gospel after you’re dead and then make a choice?
    • Craig Johnson Prior to his ascension thats what I’ve been taught.
    • Alex Joye Grenier What about after? Many die today and never heard the Gospel.
    • Craig Johnson Gods perfect justice should reveal that
    • Alex Joye Grenier Closed societies like North Korea don’t hear the Gospel.
    • Alex Joye Grenier There are still tribes in the Amazon that we haven’t discovered, etc.
    • Alex Joye Grenier There are many strict muslim nations where the Gospel is prohibited and many in those nations don’t ever hear the Christian* Gospel and they die with no “choice”
    • Craig Johnson Only God knows the measure of revelation to a given person.
    • Alex Joye Grenier So you are saying it’s possible to be saved without the Gospel?
    • Craig Johnson Dont know. Only say its definite to be saved with it.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Which version? Calvary Chapels? Mormon? Catholic?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Why can I be sure I’m saved by the CC version of the Gospel but not the Mormon version?
    • Craig Johnson Were you LDS?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Nope. But I study their theology as well as many others. I grew up in Calvary Chapel. My step dad is a CC pastor.
    • Alex Joye Grenier I live in Idaho so I have many Mormon friends.
    • Craig Johnson Salvation is a free gift. Works doesnt change that.
    • Alex Joye Grenier I was taught growing up that Mormons were a “cult” but I find Calvary Chapel to be more of a cult if Mormon’s are a cult according to CC.
    • Craig Johnson Evangelical versus I can do enough to be good enough…
    • Alex Joye Grenier So there’s nothing I have to do to be saved? Don’t I have to hear and respond to the Gospel affirmatively? Isn’t that a work?
    • Craig Johnson Mormons, JW and SOME Catholics think that its merit based
    • Alex Joye Grenier If I live my life and demonstrate no good works, am I saved? Sounds like antinomianism.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Mormons dont’ really believe that, not when you examine it closer. Mormons are actually a lot like Calvary Chapel.
    • Craig Johnson If I bring you a piece of pizza and you say thanks is that work? Dude stop. Go get things worked out with your Dad.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Mormons believe it is faith and grace that saves you, and that good works validate that saving faith.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Things are worked out with my Dad.
    • Craig Johnson Ok. Whats Joe got to add to the book?
    • Alex Joye Grenier My Dad is not a CC pastor, my step dad is.
    • Alex Joye Grenier I don’t understand your last question
    • Craig Johnson The book of Mormon. What are the rest of us missing?
    • Craig Johnson Revelation finished the show
    • Alex Joye Grenier The book of mormon is no more or less provable or disprovable than the bible.
    • Alex Joye Grenier ”Revelation finished the show” how do you know?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Because a Council convened by Roman Emperor Constantine, the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, told you so?
    • Craig Johnson After revelation what was there to add? And why?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Well, as a CC you are probably Dispensationalist. You are also probably in agreement with Progressive Revelation (w/o knowing it).
    • Craig Johnson Im actually part of a differnt cult haha.
    • Alex Joye Grenier When preachers get a “word from God!” they are essentially saying “God told me this!” and they are interpreting the bible and then telling you what it really says. That is as much a book of mormon as anything.
    • Craig Johnson A word has to line up with scripture or forget it
    • Craig Johnson Canonized scripture reigns
    • Alex Joye Grenier That’s about as subjective as it comes. There are 9,000 to 30,000 different Christian* denominations and they all have vastly different takes on much of the scripture and “what it says!”
    • Alex Joye Grenier ”Canonized” scripture. RCC Canon? EO Canon? Ethiopian Canon?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Which translation? There’s a ton of them and there are real differences in meaning on many verses depending on which one you choose…
    • Craig Johnson Seems like you are either are arguing for the sake of it or looking for an excuse for rebellion. I’d say both. Do you believe in the Spirit of God. Ask Him for truth. If you dont, you have no guide…
    • Craig Johnson Seems like your head is full. Congratulations. Now go down 12 inches and see what that says. Fill it up. Semantics wont matter so much…God Bless buddy!
    • Alex Joye Grenier There are just some real issues with your evangelical belief system and instead of being intellectually honest, as I stated above, it becomes about defending and apologizing.
    • Craig Johnson God is questioned in the head but found in the heart. Open your heart to Him and challenge Him to reveal truth.
    • Alex Joye Grenier I have and do and I think I have a lot more truth today than before.
    • Craig Johnson He will. he loves you. Good night.
    • Alex Joye Grenier He has and if he or it exists he loves you too and probably everyone else and he or it probably won’t torture anyone forever with no end.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Alex I was a Mormon for 10 years from age 14 through 24. I was married in the Los Angeles temple, did my genealogy, paid my tithing, attended a gazillion meetings, stored food, kept my yard clean and a myriad other practices designed to either perfect…See More
        • Alex Joye Grenier Mike, same dynamic in CC. Your position before “god” is determined by whether or not you are “abiding” as Chuck Smith called it and “under the spout” and “walking in the Spirit” etc. Different buzz words, same dynamic.
        • Alex Joye Grenier ”Religious systems are only as good as their reflection of God’s word. mormons and other isms, not content with the words of the Bible, as spoken, just change or add to the content when it disagrees with their preconceived notions.” Chuck Smith taught a doctrine of the resurrection that contradicts the historically orthodox Christian* teaching on the subject.
        • Alex Joye Grenier The fact is that “interpretation” and “this is what the bible really says!” is as much the book of mormon as anything. Chuck had some pretty unorthodox and even some heretical doctrines and teachings and certainly some heterodox teachings compared to the historical faith.
        • Craig Johnson Mike that was awesome. Wrap that up in a nice bow!
        • Alex Joye Grenier As I stated, Chuck made up stuff that he says he heard from ‘god’ etc. Similar to Joseph.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Not familiar with Chuck Smith’s teaching on the resurrection, nor do I subscribe to every Calvary Chapel tennant. Although it has been a few years since we attended a Calvary Chapel, one thing that keeps Calvary chapel out of the cult realm in my mind…See More
        • Alex Joye Grenier Chuck Smith taught that we get spirit-bodies which is different than the literal resurrection of the flesh that is considered orthodox Christian* belief.
        • Mike Richard Edwards As far as the security of the believer goes, that has been a topic debated among Christians for 2000 years–cults do not allow such debate
        • Alex Joye Grenier The End Time emphasis and “rapture” is also heterodox and was the prime teaching of CC.
        • Craig Johnson So Alex let’s get down to what do you actually believe?
        • Alex Joye Grenier Mormons then are not a cult and I was taught they were growing up in CC. I have many discussions both online and in person with Mormons and they are very pleasant to talk to about a range of issues.
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority drives people’s Philosophical Belief Systems, a.k.a. Religion.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Mike Richard Edwards I have heard Chuck Smith and Don Stewart speculate on things like the resurrection, but I have never heard them put their opinions as carrying the weight of scripture. The reality is that we do not really know what happens after we die–spirit body? Soul sleep? Don’t know
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe in filtering everything through Conscience and Reason to determine what is true.
        • Craig Johnson Again Alex that’s intellectual mumbo jumbo what do you think is the truth?
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that it is more probable that God “is” than God is not.
        • Alex Joye Grenier I’m getting there Craig, I’m starting from the beginning
        • Craig Johnson That’s a great start my friend
        • Craig Johnson Erase the rest then embrace the best
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that the bible contains many truths but is not infallible and inerrant and perfect. I do not believe the bible is God. I believe the bible is “inspired” but it has verifiable mistakes and contradictions etc that are easily self-evident.
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that the Ideal of most of the Gospel accounts of Jesus is “good” and I believe that if Jesus did in fact walk the earth and did in fact resurrect etc then he is the messiah, though I cannot prove it empirically.
        • Craig Johnson I wasn’t there either but my spirit tells me it’s fact
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that “love your neighbor” is “good” and I believe that “kill the Amalekite women, children and infants” is “evil”
        • Alex Joye Grenier I believe that commanding a people through law to execute their rebellious children with stones is “evil” and that feeding the hungry, helping the orphan and widow is “good”
        • Mike Richard Edwards ”Mormons then are not a cult and I was taught they were growing up in CC. I have many discussions both online and in person with Mormons and they are very pleasant to talk to about a range of issues.” Being pleasant is a good thing, but does not move …See More
        • Alex Joye Grenier Mike, my point about that is that you stated that CC isn’t a cult b/c you could discuss things and disagree etc. Same as my experience with Mormons.
        • Mike Richard Edwards You can disagree with them because you are a possible convert. Once you have been in the church the requirements get steeper and steeper. I’m not making this up–I lived it.
        • Alex Joye Grenier I know all about the “odd” stuff Mike. I’ve had as frank of discussions as you can imagine…and Mormons are not monolithic, many believe some of the stuff and not some of the stuff.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Alex, most Mormons do not comprehend their own religion. what odd stuff do you know about?
        • Alex Joye Grenier Ya, I’m sure there is some truth to that, just as there are similar things in Calvary Chapel that I experienced. I was told my Lutheran best friend wasn’t saved and went to a dead church and that he wasn’t saved etc.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Did you know about the temple rites? where they are taught hand signals to get into heaven and promise to have their throat slit and to be disemboweled if they divulge any temple secrets. It just goes on and on
        • Alex Joye Grenier Celestial, Telestial, Terrestial and outer darkness.
        • Alex Joye Grenier Planet Kolob though that is a fringe issue now.
        • Alex Joye Grenier That we are eternal spirits and that this existence here on earth is like a test for us, etc.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Alex I appreciate your honesty, but if you are going to be a good skeptic you shouldn’t push a point that has little backing.
        • Alex Joye Grenier They have a more literal view of the Godhead. They actually take it literally that Jesus is God’s only begotten son etc. and they use the word Godhead instead othe extra-bibical man-made word “trinity”
        • Alex Joye Grenier Mike, I didn’t say I believed it, I was articulating some of the stuff I’ve learned from their Belief System that I found odd compared to CC.
        • Mike Richard Edwards Now the problems with the Bible like the destruction of the Amalekites–to me that is a vaid question
        • Craig Johnson What if the Amalekites had revelation about the God of Israel and chose to reject him and fight him and hated his people. What they deserve lollipops?
        • Alex Joye Grenier Genocide is considered universally “evil” and there is a real moral/ethical dilemma presented if you assert that “god” commanded the israelites to kill all the women, children, infants and animals. That would be considered “evil” and wrong in any context if you or I gave that order.
        • Craig Johnson As the people moved across the land they were known to fight by attacking the elderly the feeble and the children. Again lollipops?
        • Alex Joye Grenier Doesn’t matter. From a moral/ethical standpoint you are forced to call it “good” since God gave the order and it isn’t “good” by an universally acceptable definition of the term “good”
        • Alex Joye Grenier My guess is “god” didn’t tell the israelites to kill all the women, children and infants, even though the bible says so.
        • Craig Johnson Sounds like you think you have the definition of good clearly defined no offense intended but who are you to say what’s good?
        • Craig Johnson Where did your road map come from philosopher’s?
        • Mike Richard Edwards Let’s talk about the Amorites. they too were given a death sentence. They were given 400 years to repent of their practices of child sacrifice and before having them wiped out God said of them, “the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” Is it possible that the sins of a society can become so systemic that nothing short of complete destruction can rid the world of their influence?
        • Mike Richard Edwards America is exporting abortion and pornography. What will come of us when our iniquity is complete?
        • Craig Johnson Where did your concept of Good and Evil come from a supreme God what or the primordial ooze?
        • Alex Joye Grenier Levitical law, supposedly commanded by God to Moses to tell the Israelites: “As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers …See More
        • Mike Richard Edwards Only God has the right over life or death. Only God has the right to kill or make alive. None of us will live forever and not one of us has the capacity to sovereignly see the end from the beginning
        • Alex Joye Grenier Craig, my Reason and Conscience tell me stuff is “good” and “evil”…just like you stated above you said to “ask him for truth”…well that’s what my Conscience tells me.
        • Alex Joye Grenier So, you are asserting that God can be evil but we can’t. God can do whatever he wants and it’s “good” no matter what, but if we emulate God, as we are told to do, and commit Genocide, then we are evil?
        • Alex Joye Grenier If God commanded Genocide and it’s “good” how come Hitler was “evil”?
        • Alex Joye Grenier One standard for God, another for Hitler?
        • Alex Joye Grenier The evangelical and “literal interpretation” and “bible is inerrant and infallible!” position makes God out to be evil which is self-evident if you read the whole bible and not just the 25% that most evangelical churches teach out of.
        • Alex Joye Grenier ”God” if he or it is truly “good” and truly “love” cannot have commanded Genocide and things like executing unruly children with stones and telling you you could own slaves as personal property and that you could beat them as long as you didn’t kill them etc.
        • Alex Joye Grenier Those are some of the inconvenient truths about the CC and evangelical soup. It is what it is. It has caused me to be much more liberal theologically, much more.


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