• Michael Newnham God is holy, we are not.
    • Michael Newnham In the older testament God begins to move a people He calls to Himself to His ideal which is represented in Jesus. He meets them where they are, but He doesn’t leave them there. “To sum it up, the law of Moses reveals God’s progression toward an ideal moral code but isn’t in itself the ideal moral code. Paul Copan expressed this well: Mosaic times were indeed “crude” and “uncultured” in many ways. So Sinai legislation makes a number of moral improvements without completely overhauling ancient Near Eastern social structures and assumptions. God “works with” Israel as he finds her. He meets his people where they are while seeking to show them a higher ideal in the context of ancient Near Eastern life. 2 So what does this have to do with violence and warfare? As with polygamy, slavery, and divorce, the law of Moses accommodates to and offers moral improvements upon ancient Near Eastern warfare policy and violence. From our perspective , the Old Testament seems like an ongoing bloodbath. Compared to the laws of other nations, however, the Old Testament’s laws regarding war and violence are quite tame, and in some cases absurd. To understand violence in the Old Testament, therefore, we must view it within the “redemptive movement” of God’s plan. God meets Israel in its brutally violent world and takes incremental steps away from such violence and toward peace and nonviolence.”

      Sprinkle, Preston (2013-08-01). Fight: A Christian Case for Non-Violence (Kindle Locations 541-551). David C. Cook. Kindle Edition.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Is the stuff God supposedly told to Moses regarding those specific issues “holy”? I’d say, “no”…so why would a “holy” God tell Moses that stuff was OK?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Answer: Maybe God didn’t tell that stuff to Moses…
    • Alex Joye Grenier There is a clear contradiction in your “Holy God” narrative vs. other passages that a supposedly “holy” God told Moses and others to do stuff that isn’t “holy” by anyone’s definition.
    • Michael Newnham Again, God was accommodating Himself to where they were at historically and culturally…while moving them (and us) toward true holiness.
    • Alex Joye Grenier You say “god is holy” and then you define holiness…then you dismiss commands and specific actions etc that God supposedly told to Moses. Would you describe me as “holy” if I told you to go kill women, children and infants? If I told you to execute children with stones? If I told you you could own sex slaves etc? No, you’d say I was not ‘holy”. That forces us to either 1. Redefine “holiness” to include some very bad things or 2. To reconsider that a lot of the OT and NT is some dude saying he heard special from God and in reality he didn’t…not if God is truly “holy”
    • Michael Newnham No, it drives us to understand what God was doing and why…and see the progression from where He found us to where He’s taking us.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Any argument “for” a “holy” and “good’ and “loving” God is an argument against an inerrant, perfect, “God said!” bible-as-God thesis…b/c the attributes you ascribe to a “holy” and “good” and “loving” God contradict what you are forced to swallow in taking a bible-is-perfect position due to the facts we can observe in the bible itself that show supposedly “god” commanding and condoning some very non-holy and non-good and non-loving things…
    • Alex Joye Grenier You’re saying that God commanding Moses and the Israelites to execute children with stones serves some greater good? Wowzers. Slavery and Concubines, too? Beating slaves with rods as long as you don’t kill them?
    • Alex Joye Grenier Any way you slice it, there are Universally “good” and Universally “bad” things. There is no context in which that stuff is “good” and justifiable.
    • Michael Newnham I’m saying that God had a purpose…multiple ones, actually…and that those purposes were achieved incrementally and led to Christ who leads back to the garden of shalom.
    • Alex Joye Grenier So the Ends justify the Means?
    • Alex Joye Grenier …that is the angle you are now supporting above
    • Alex Joye Grenier the Ends Justifies the Means is essentially what you are saying
    • Alex Joye Grenier …there is nothing that is Universally wrong and bad and evil…b/c if God does it, then it’s all good
    • Alex Joye Grenier Sounds similar to the CC mindset…Ends Justify the Means. You can be a total bastard, as long as it’s for Jesus
    • Michael Newnham No, I’m saying that in the wisdom of God he chose to lead His people from utter barbarity to the Cross incrementally and through process.
    • Alex Joye Grenier You’re dodging the issue. Your position is that God “commanded” the barbaric acts
    • Alex Joye Grenier Did he or didn’t he?
    • Michael Newnham The book I referenced above deal with the issues in far greater detail…if you wish to actually engage the best arguments and explanations, I recommend it highly.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Did God command the barbaric acts? Yes he did…
    • Alex Joye Grenier I’ve reviewed similar arguments, they are intellectually dishonest and bullshit
    • Michael Newnham The question is why, and what was He trying to accomplish?
    • Alex Joye Grenier You’re asking me to turn my brain off and assent to total bullshit spin
    • Alex Joye Grenier The question is “what” not why
    • Alex Joye Grenier Is there such a thing as Universally “good” and Universally “bad”…your position says no, not if God commands it
    • Michael Newnham Well, then you have the right to your beliefs. I believe you’re wrong, you believe the same of my view. I’m not going to spend much time on it.
    • Alex Joye Grenier If anyone but God commands the execution of children with stones, you’d call it “unholy” and “evil”…like the Taliban
    • Alex Joye Grenier To protect your incorrect “bible is perfect” position, you swallow a serious error
    • Alex Joye Grenier you impugn God’s character and make him evil
    • Michael Newnham If that command was in effect today, I might. What was the purpose of that commandment in that time, with that people, in that culture?
    • Alex Joye Grenier To kill people
    • Alex Joye Grenier to scare others into submission
    • Alex Joye Grenier ”perfect love casts out fear”
    • Michael Newnham You quote the NT to debate the OT…and again I direct you back to that time, that people, and that culture. The command is not in effect today…we have been moved past that time to the Cross and toward home.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Two Narratives; Fear, Killing, Submit or else, Fear based vs. Love, Perfect love casts out all fear, love your enemy, etc
    • Alex Joye Grenier I quote both OT and NT and I think both have mistakes in them. I start with God’s character as pre-eminent and work my way down from there
    • Alex Joye Grenier You yourself would assert that a “good” and “holy” God is incapable of sin and doing bad things…
    • Alex Joye Grenier If that premise is truth, then God could not have commanded those Universally bad things to Moses…
    • Alex Joye Grenier You cannot have God as “good” and “holy” and “loving” and attribute to him the commanding and condoning of evil things
    • Alex Joye Grenier Essentially, then, you should have no beef with the Taliban as they are practicing the Levitical Law of the Old Testament and simply didn’t get the memo that the rules changed.
    • Michael Newnham Alex, it’s time for me to do homework with Trey. You are pretty set in your position and I have come to greater belief in mine from studying these things. thus, no light will come from this.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Discussions always bring things to light. You never agree with the arminians on some points of doctrinal hair-splitting but it doesn’t stop you from discussing the same issues over and over and over.
    • Michael Newnham Levitical law was for the people of Israel only. I would have trouble with any group who didn’t see the fullness of God revealed in Christ.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Was Levitical Law good or evil?
    • Alex Joye Grenier That’s the issue…
    • Alex Joye Grenier Was Levitical law “holy”? “Loving”?
    • Michael Newnham It was good in the historical and cultural context of the people of Israel and the starting point from which they were being led to a true revelation of who God was. It was never the complete revelation of God, nor was it intended to be.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Why would a good and holy and loving God who is incapable of evil and sin give such an evil and wrong set of laws to the Israelites? Answer: because he didn’t. That’s a “god” of Jewish mythology that isn’t the god of the supposed Good-Jesus Christian*…why aren’t you a Jew if you think the Levitical Law was “good”?
    • Alex Joye Grenier ” It was good in the historical and cultural context of the people of Israel ” <–Relativism
    • Alex Joye Grenier OK, Relativism can make some sense…
    • Alex Joye Grenier ”Good” and “evil” and “right and wrong” depend on “cultural context of the people”
    • Alex Joye Grenier …that is what you just stated
    • Michael Newnham Not relativism…progressive revelation. The ideal was always the same…the process to arrive there was incremental.
    • Alex Joye Grenier How do you know what is “right” and “wrong” for our “cultural context and people today?
    • Alex Joye Grenier No, you said “right and wrong” changed, which is not “revelation” it’s relativism
    • Michael Newnham By looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Something is either “good” or “evil” or “right” or “wrong” in the Absolute sense. If it changes it is Relativism and not an Absolute
    • Alex Joye Grenier Progressive Revelation is merely revealing more of what is Universally True. You are confusing Progressive Revelation with Relativism
    • Alex Joye Grenier Absolute/Objective vs. Relative/Subjective Truth and Authority…
    • Alex Joye Grenier I think we are experiencing Progressive Revelation and much of it is showing some of the old stuff to be error and wrong.
    • Alex Joye Grenier It is Universally wrong and evil to execute children with stones, it is Universally good and right to show mercy to children.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Progressive Revelation has shown me that. You have stated that at one time in one cultural context the act of stoning kids to death was “good”…which is Relativism.
    • Michael Newnham No…you are being extremely reductionist. If the social fabric of the community was threatened by family rebellion, then it had to be dealt with severely. There was a process in place to make sure that this was done justly…and we have no record biblically or otherwise that this law was ever enacted.
    • Alex Joye Grenier If there is such a thing as “Good” and such a thing as “Love” and such a thing as “Holy” then the definitions of such are very important to establish as Universal Definitions. If God is truly all those things, then he necessarily cannot violate those definitions in any form or he does not measure up to the standard as he is self-defined in part of the biblical narrative.
    • Alex Joye Grenier If you accept “evil” as “good” and “not love” as “love” etc, then you have no solid Universal definition for those terms and you are essentially a Relativist who picks and chooses depending on what better fits your narrative
    • Michael Newnham He is all of the above…and that is represented in it’s fullness in Christ. The process before Christ did not represent the fullness of God.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Can a “good” God command evil things?
    • Alex Joye Grenier It comes down to what you accept as “good” and “evil” and “right” and “wrong”
    • Alex Joye Grenier Or, you are forced to Relativize the evil things commanded in the OT as “good” because in that Cultural Context they were “good” and not “evil” whereas today, in our Cultural Context, they are not “good” they are “evil”…which is a Relativist Position and has some very interesting implications…which are plausible and we can explore that path
    • Alex Joye Grenier If Relativism is correct: that some things that were once “good” are now “evil”…then we have to determine what constitutes Cultural Context and we have to determine what metric we use to define “good” and “evil” within a framework of Cultural Context. The only metric I can find is “Consensus Principle”. The Consensus of a Culture defines “good” and “evil”…the Culture’s Government and Laws define “good” and “evil” etc.
    • Alex Joye Grenier As such, if Truth is more Relative in nature…as you assert with your Old Testament levitical law apologetic above…then we must re-evaluate “good” and “evil” and right and wrong through Consensus of a particular Culture. In our day and age, our Consensus has defined abortion as acceptable and gay marriage as acceptable…therefore “good” by your standard.
    • Alex Joye Grenier If you argue for Moral Absolutes, then you are in conflict with your own position above that states that at one time it was “good” and acceptable to kill children with stones, have slaves, etc.
    • Alex Joye Grenier You’re in quite a predicament either way you go…
    • Alex Joye Grenier I’ve played this chess game to its end many times and there are no other moves available…it is what it is. Pick one. Moral Absolutism or Relativism…either one you choose…your current belief system and professed apologetic has a big problem.
    • Alex Joye Grenier Thank you, BTW. It is really helpful in hashing out the core issues and articulating my position. It will make for a good article.
      • Michael Newnham Gods moral nature never changes…the revelation of that nature to his people did. Our child labor laws are “good”. Pre the industrial revolution they would have destroyed the economy and the culture. In 1957 Jerry Lee scandalized the world by marrying his 13 year old cousin. In 100 B.C she would have been an old maid if they had waited much longer…
      • Alex Joye Grenier There is some cross-over and some truths are Relative to a culture, but “killing” seems to be a Universal and the OT Levitical Law and the interpretation that says it is the same Christian God as Jesus that commanded the killing of children with stones as justifiable punishment for rebellion…seems to be a big Universal No-no, as is Slavery (owning another human being as property) as is beating Slaves with rods to near-death, as is having Sex-Slaves, etc.
      • Alex Joye Grenier If you can easily eschew Slavery, Sex Slaves, Stoning, Beating etc onto Relative non-Universal truth, then you are really a Relativist and should reconsider much of your more conservative moral positions you hold today like Gay Marriage, etc.
      • Alex Joye Grenier What is more morally reprehensible? Owning female sex slaves, executing a child with stones…or consensual homosexual sex?
      • Alex Joye Grenier You, as a conservative Fundamentalist, would assert that consensual adult homosexual sex is “evil” b/c “the bible says so!” (even though Jesus never spoke to the issue specifically)…yet you would say that at one time, due to Cultural Context, it was NOT morally reprehensible or “evil” to own Sex Slaves, execute children with stones and beat slaves with rods, etc….
      • Alex Joye Grenier Big giant blind spots
      • Michael Newnham Again, you fail to deal with either the context, culture, or purpose of God. Here’s the final destination..“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
        (Galatians 3:28 ESV) That’s where the journey ends…and where we were being led the whole time.
      • Alex Joye Grenier Who is “all”?
      • Michael Newnham All those who are in Christ.
      • Alex Joye Grenier in your view, the Elect, correct?
      • Alex Joye Grenier God picks winners and losers, no?
      • Alex Joye Grenier So, from your calvinist perspective, a “good” and “loving” and “holy” God created a bunch of folks…and he picked a few to be saved…and he went ahead and created the rest that he didn’t pick to be on the team…who he then has to torment in hell for eternity just because.
      • Michael Newnham Alex, I just stopped to add some clarity to my statements as I had no idea they would end up as a blog post. I’m not taking the rest of the night to debate election.
      • Alex Joye Grenier seems the terms “loving”, “holy” and “good” need some redefining…
      • Alex Joye Grenier Michael, the crux of your calvinist error is that you are forced to apologize for Universally “evil” and “wrong” and sinful behavior
      • Alex Joye Grenier If God is truly “holy” he is incapable of doing evil things…and creating sentient, conscious beings to burn in torment forever and forever (in your professed doctrines) is not Universally “good”, it is “evil”
      • Alex Joye Grenier At least the Arminian attempts to place part of the blame on the sentient human, but in the end, when examined closely, they essentially assert God picks winners and losers as well.
      • Michael Newnham Alex…I’m done for the night. Have a good evening.